Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Valhalla Vineyards

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete.

AfD is not a vote, but has to be decided on its merits. In the discussion below, the following has been put forward as evidence for notability:

  1. Mentioned or listed in the following:
    1. East Coast wineries: a complete guide from Maine to Virginia. This has been characterized as a "commercial wine guide" without independent inclusion criteria, which has not been refuted.
    2. Two of their wines have been mentioned at WineSpectator.com ten years ago.
    3. Listing as one of "Western Virginia's charming but lesser-known wineries" at roanoke.com.
    4. Listing in Fodor's guide to Virginia and Maryland (no reference given)
    5. Listing in East Coast wineries: a complete guide from Maine to Virginia By Carlo DeVito
    6. Four paragraphs from an interview with the owners at winespectator.com.
    7. Article in a local paper[1]. (It has been claimed that this was "carried by [...] a major metropolitan paper in North Carolina", but no evidence has been provided for this claim.)
    8. NYT writes in 2000: "Even in the commonwealth, it is hard to find the much-honored Valhalla reds (like a cabernet franc called Gotterdammerung and a shiraz) that Dr. James Vascik, a neurosurgeon, produces 2,000 feet above the Roanoke Valley."[2] The argument that "[this] was a 1-line passing mention in a travel article, thus failing WP:CORP", has not been refuted. The quote "much-honored" has been taken as proof of such honors, but no concrete honors since the ones of 1998 (below) have been brought forward.
    These do not constitute "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject", but rather meet the invalid criteria, such as "being mentioned in a wine review or wine region overview" and "Being the subject of one article or profile by itself in an otherwise verifiable and reliable source like Wine Spectator".
  2. Awards: The winery won two or three state awards in 1998. [3]. Notability for these awards has not been established, thus meeting the Invalid criterion "Being an award winner in regional competitions (such as a county or state fair)".
  3. Features:
    1. This is one of two Virginia vineyards to process its grapes underground.
    2. It has a 2,000 square foot cave.
    There seems to be no criterion at WP:WINETOPIC according to which these would establish notability. The underground process is only mentioned as an aside, and does not seem to be notable by itself.
  4. Other:
    1. Google hits.
    2. WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS.

In summa, it has not been shown that any of the above meets any of the criteria of the applicable guidelines WP:WINETOPIC, WP:COMPANY, and WP:N. — Sebastian 03:07, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Valhalla Vineyards

Valhalla Vineyards (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)
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Non-notable winery that does not pass WP:CORP nor the Wine Project's internal guidelines for winery notability. Prod was contested over 6 months ago with the promise that the winery was notable and that reliable sources could be found to demonstrate this in the article. After waiting several months and checking to see if I could find the sources, myself, I do not believe there is enough independent, third-party reliable sources to make an article that adequately demonstrates notability. AgneCheese/Wine 16:06, 21 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That is a commercial wine guide that basically just confirms that the winery exist--not that it is notable for anything. Every mom and pop restaurant in the world is listed in some commercial restaurant guide (including my local pizza joint down the street in Seattle, Washington), but those restaurant guides alone do not establish notability. AgneCheese/Wine 16:55, 21 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well the second link you posted are essentially all commercial wine guides and looking at the 1st link, I see no reliable sources that indicate the winery has done anything notable. There are only casual mentions of the winery, much like the casual mentions that any mom and pop restaurant receives but clearly do pass the GNG. Another editor seemingly spent 6 months looking for reliable sources to expend the article and obviously couldn't find anything that would help pass WP:CORP. Again, looking at those links you posted is there anything you see there that establishes ANY kind of notability for the winery beyond the simple act of just existing? AgneCheese/Wine 01:32, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak delete. When RS coverage to this sparse degree is all that can be produced ([6][7][8][9]), I think it ought to be deleted (potentially userfied until substantial RS does exist). MURGH disc. 07:51, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. I don't see that the article or the discussion above establishes any notability sufficient for Wikipedia:Notability (wine topics). Among the hundreds of thousands of wineries of the world, what have they done do belong among the perhaps 1% or so that motivate a Wikipedia article? Nothing else than the other 99%, it seems after having read the article and the discussion above. If I'm wrong, please insert the relevant information into the article, properly referenced. And be careful when googling for this name, because there is also a Valhalla Vineyard Pinot Noir produced by Anderson's Conn Valley Vineyards in Napa, which (unlike the wines of this winery) gets reviewed by e.g. Parker. Tomas e (talk) 19:07, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, (X! · talk)  · @228  ·  04:28, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Olympic Pizza and Pasta is often touted as one of "Best Pizza" places in Seattle and also gets a fair amount of local coverage as one of the "Best known" pizza places. But that doesn't mean it is notable enough to pass WP:CORP. While it does have local "acclaim", it has done nothing outside of simply being a pizza place. Same with Valhalla. They have done nothing outside of simply being a winery. They've received "2" mediocre wine reviews from Wine Spectator (which rates 10,000 wines every year). Tasting notes are no different than restaurant reviews-which every single mom and pop restaurant has received dozens of. Of the "multiple" Wine Spectator coverage-most aren't even talking about THIS winery but rather the Conn Valley Vineyard's label in California (completely unrelated to this Virginia winery) and the "Unfilitered" entry is also not talking about the winery but rather a golf event at the Valhalla Golf Club in Kentucky. Of the minisicule Wine Spectator coverage that actually does mention the Virginia winery all we have is brief one line mentions when talking about Virginia wine in general, an advert for a grape stomp during harvest the tasting notes. This is not the type of of significant coverage in reliable, independent secondary sources... that WP:CORP spells out as indicating notability. AgneCheese/Wine 05:43, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Doesn't seem like you read the pieces cited. You poke fun at the "multiple" Wine Spectator coverage as "brief one line mentions", but if you had read this, cited in the article and linked to in my comment, you'd know that's not the case. Also, more than 2 reviews although I only linked to two. Anyhow! Have a great evening. oh, also, found an AP article on lexisnexis. Vivisel (talk) 05:54, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Medals in local/regional wine "contests" means absolutely nothing in this case, since they just exist for promotional purposes. This type of information actually does not belong in an encyclopedic article (because of this ongoing AfD I added a "trivia" template to emphasize this rather than to delete it, which I would usually do with similar text), and if this is the only information that can be digged up it's very likely that a winery is not notable. By the way, in most contests, a bronze medal means little more than the wine was liquid (wine that fail to get even the lowest medal are usually those that are so bad that they are considered an embarassment). However, being regularly rated by Wine Spectator and other international wine publications could mean that a winery in fact is notable. In this case I see references to one 1998 and one 1999, and 1998 was apparently the first vintage. If most of their range has been rated by WS in all or almost all vintages since 1998, they could be notable. However, if WS just tasted a few when they were a novelty, IMHO this does not establish notability since it doesn't come above the level of "non-trivial mention" to reach "significant coverage". So have they been regularly rated (i.e. received significant coverage) or not? Tomas e (talk) 13:50, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Now I checked out WS (I don't subscribe but search is possible), and the number of ratings is exactly two ("multiple"?). The search engine also finds three tasting notes for three vintages of "Anderson's Conn Valley Pinot Noir Napa Valley Valhalla Vineyards" but as the name indicates that's produced somewhere else by another winery. I previously checked out Wine Advocate, and there it is zero hits, but 11 vintages of Anderson's Conn Valley's Pinot have been rated, so I would consider that producer notable. "Two wines tasted once by WS several years ago, was never repeated, didn't make it into WA" is a formula definitely not enough for notability based on this type of sources, I'm afraid. It's still delete for me. Tomas e (talk) 14:19, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the Wine Spectator piece I linked to above contains an interview with the vineyard's owner and a few solid paragraphs about the winery. 2 AP pieces on nexis, one of which is a 500-word piece completely devoted to the specific winery, which seems to be essentially unique for its production methods in VA (1 of 2 that do it this way, out of how many VA wineries?). I'm no wine expert, and I have nothing to do with the wine wikiproject, I've never been to this winery, and what do I know really. but seems to me that this is a relatively important VA winery, as they go. that may not count for much in the grand scheme of things, but it seems to be notable. Vivisel (talk) 17:25, 28 December 2009 (UTC)173.76.21.152 (talk) 17:24, 28 December 2009 (UTC) (oops, forgot to login)[reply]
Yes, and other than this one piece obviously WS doesn't think it's worth to review their wines again. So obviously not regularly covered by any international wine magazine. A one-time mention by WS is absolutely not sufficient to establish notability. Tomas e (talk) 12:02, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
While it may be unique in the juvenile and still developing Virginia wine industry, it is not not unique or notable in the greater world of wine. In fact, the concept of using gravity to help crush and press grapes has been around since the Greeks and Romans were making wine. This is akin to say that an artisan bakery is notable because they are one of the first to go back to using wood fire brick ovens in a particular city. AgneCheese/Wine 20:35, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Seems to me that a totality of facts about a given location or object often establishes notability. Just because it's an old technique doesn't negate the fact that in a state with a significant number of wineries, there are only two that produce wine this way, of which this is one. More broadly, as I said, there is an AP article completely dedicated to this winery and another that discusses it (which you removed from the article, incorrectly claiming it wasn't verifiable), there is a Wine Spectator article with several paragraphs dedicated to the winery and a short interview with its winemaker! I may not know how to wield WP:VARIOUSABBREVIATIONS but I am sure there are scads of excellent subjects in this encyclopedia that have not been blessed with that level of press coverage. Vivisel (talk) 21:24, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
(Partial cross posting from article talk) The notability of this subject is so weak that even when someone tries to use what scant mentioning of the winery there are, they have as much success as squeezing water from a stone. I'm still not sure where this "AP" news story is. Considering that the AP's own archive search shows ZERO results for "Valhalla Vineyards" and searching for the exact headline and AP details of the article that was used as a ref comes up with zip, nada, zilch and nothing-I think we have an issue with WP:V. Articles on truly notable subjects do not have this many issues with finding reliable sources that can be verified. AgneCheese/Wine 21:46, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
One user's inability to access two Associated Press articles doesn't constitute non-notability, and though I'm a wiki-novice I don't see anything about "if you have trouble finding more than 2 AP articles" in notability guidelines. (Editors: how many pages does this standard mandate deleted?!) As I said on the article talk page, if you don't have a book in your personal library, do you summarily delete citations to it? But I'm done here. I can't believe I've spent this much time on this... Vivisel (talk) 22:00, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Of course not. With a book there is (hopefully) an ISBN which allows anyone to track the book down at a library. This may take time but it is doable. Under WP:V you have to give enough information about your source to where people can find the source and verify the information. If someone post a book ref, without an ISBN number, and there is no evidence to support that the book even exist then it could be removed. The AP archives are fairly extensive, especially for articles that were picked up on the wire. The fact that the AP own archive has no mention of Valhalla shows at the very least this wasn't picked up on the news wire and at most was distinctly local, trivial mention. Considering that this "AP story" is about the results of a promotional marketing event, I strongly suspect this may have just been a press release affiliated with the marketing association. Again, we're squeezing water from stones because there is not the type of of significant coverage in reliable, independent secondary sources.... This should be a big red flag that we are dealing with a subject of distinctly questionable notability at best. Truly notable subjects don't have this issue. AgneCheese/Wine 22:11, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
FYI, The article (one of two) is not about the results of a promotional marketing event. It mentions them, and it is about wine yields in Virginia for the year. I'd encourage other folks with LexisNexis access to check. Vivisel (talk) 22:30, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Sufficient coverage and recognition to warrant inclusion, albeit weakly. People write about wineries and breweries. They're tourist attractions and the welle established ones seem to meet our general guidelines. ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:23, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Gift shops and local restaurants are tourist attraction too and frankly you can find more "...significant coverage in reliable, independent secondary sources" for many gift shops and restaurants than you can for this winery. As a member of WP:WINE, I certainly love the topic of wine and ardently want Wikipedia's coverage of wine to be the best on the internet but I can't let my romanticism blend me to the reality that a winery is ultimately a business. There are literally over a 100,000 wineries in the world and much like restaurants and gift shops they are only notable for simply existing. No self respecting encyclopedia would aim to be a WP:DIRECTORY of gift shops and restaurants. We expect more "...significant coverage in reliable, independent secondary sources" that indicate that these gift shops and restaurants are notable for doing something more than just existing. Why do we give wineries a "free pass" on WP:CORP that we do not extend to gift shops and restaurants? AgneCheese/Wine 20:35, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There are oodles of articles discussing this subject in various reliable sources including the Roanoke Times, the Richmond paper, Chalottesville papers, Washington Post, and other such as this one [10] that are very substantial coverage. ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:21, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oodles? When do brief, casual or distinctly local interest pieces count as "oodles"? And again how is this different from what any gift shop or mom & pop local restaurant receives? The local Star paper link you posted talks about the winery being converted from a peach orchard. How is this notable? How is this more notable than the hundreds of new restaurants converted from some previous (even historic) buildings into new restaurants? How is this winery in any way notable for anything else then merely existing? As I mentioned before, while I am a tireless advocate for expanding Wikipedia's wine coverage, I see no receive why we should disregard Wikipedia's notability policies to give a winery a free pass with the same scant, insignificant and trivial coverage than any mom or pop restaurant receives because it is a winery. AgneCheese/Wine 00:40, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes oodles. Pages and pages and pages of google news returns. I didn't even have to check google books. And let's not pretend that everything printed in reliable independent sources gets included there. Furthermore, I gave a good example of very substantial coverage providing an article entirely about the winery and it's very large wine cave (one of two in the state at the time I think it said?). And your local coverage claims don't wash when the winery is being covered as in this article by major market media outside of its home state. The "local star paper" is a large media market paper in North Carolina. The Washington Post is also a large paper and they've been noted there repeatedly. Cheers. ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:57, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Could you please specify, with links, which general guidelines you're refererring to? This winery obviously fails WP:CORP and Wikipedia:Notability (wine topics)? Is there another guideline that you apply which confers notability on all tourist attractions or anything mentioned in a local newspaper??? Or are you just saying that each and every of the world's hundreds of thousands of wineries automatically are notable? Tomas e (talk) 12:08, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It passes the general notability guildeline and wp:Corp "An organization is generally considered notable if it has been the subject of significant coverage in reliable, independent secondary sources." There are oodles of cites including the one noted above that isn't local and that gives very substantial coverage to this winery. Cheers. ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:54, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Where are these cites? I see oodles of cites referring to Valhalla Vineyard Pinot Noir produced by Anderson's Conn Valley Vineyards in Napa, but that isn't the subject of discussion here. This particular winery is in Virginia. Kindly point out a couple examples of this "substantial coverage" to which you're referring. I'm not seeing it. I see passing mentions, but nothing really substantial. The Star article you linked to (nice article too) doesn't quite qualify; note that even Wine Spectator routinely profile obscure wineries but such profiles don't make them notable. This winery has a weak claim of notability by being one of the few wineries that perform processing underground, but that in itself isn't so unusual that it warrants an article in an encyclopedia. ~Amatulić (talk) 01:11, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have studied the proposed guideline and consider it inferior to the general notability guideline as it seems to rely upon subjective notions of "significance" which are not articulated further. In any case, as it has not been accepted as a proper guideline, it carries no weight here. Colonel Warden (talk) 23:31, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Delete//incubate Just not enough coverage yet. Might well be in the future. NBeale (talk) 21:06, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Wineries are a touchy subject when it comes to notability. They tend to get local coverage, and sometimes the wines get national mention in the form of reviews. That really isn't enough to establish them as being worthy in an encyclopedia. There tends to be romance, art, and passion associated with wines, but when it comes down to it, most wineries are simply small businesses. Medals awarded in competitions really shouldn't be cited as reasons for being notable. Judging tends to be so varied that almost any wine will win something if you send it to enough fairs/competitions/whatever. This winery really isn't any more notable that hundreds or thousands of others across the country. The Bethling(Talk) 05:24, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrary section break

Please read the discussion above and the guideline Wikipedia:Notability (wine topics) linked just above your vote. These awards, created solely for promotional purposes are of zero value to establishing notability. Tomas e (talk) 11:59, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The proposed guideline is written by people who are knowledgeable about the subject--which is important in critically evaluating sources. Pretty much you just fell for the classic con of marketing above in being "wowed" by a wine competition medal. People that don't understand the wine industry or are not knowledgeable about the subject tend to fall for the same con as well, which is at the root of most advertising and marketing. Winning a medal at these wine tasting events is not like winning a medal at the Olympics. There are literally thousands of these tasting events featuring hundreds of thousands of wines every year. The point is not to pick out the categorically "best" wine but rather to give as many entrants a marketing tool which they can use to "impress" consumers who fall for such things. Take the "Virginia Governor's" cup mentioned in the Valhalla Vineyards article. Of the 233 wines who entered the competition 133 won a medal. As all the wineries entered multiple wines it ended up that every single winery won at least 1 medal. It is like your school's athletic "field day" where everyone gets a ribbon. The "peer reviewed" ones are the biggest scam since winemakers are hesitant to criticize the work of a peer because when it is that peer's turn to review the wines, they fret getting a similarly critically review. (We see this folly play out many times in the "peer tasting" panels of AOC wines in France). Now to know things like this, you have to be the industry and/or be well versed in the subject matter, otherwise Wikipedia will fall for the same scams that Colonel Warden and Vivisel fell for. AgneCheese/Wine 20:19, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Those are excellent points that the closing admin needs to take into consideration. Remember, this is not a vote. A deletion decision is based on the merits of the arguments presented here, and so far the 'keep' arguments have not held water. ~Amatulić (talk) 22:19, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Truly, this can't be emphasized enough, wine awards are as common as state fairs, and the competitions themselves in most cases would not warrant Wikipedia inclusion. A small handful of global competitions are notable, but the vast number of accolades even they award ought not to be relevant to an encyclopedic article. The key issue in this AFD is if the winery itself has received thorough coverage in third-party reliable sources. "Awards" and the odd tasting note need to be disregarded. MURGH disc. 22:42, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Nonsense. We have ample testimony of reliable sources including Wine Spectator, New York Times and Vineyard & Winery Management. Your personal opinion as to the merits of this vineyard are just that - your own personal opinion - and so carries little weight. I have no personal opinion about the place but consider that we have ample support from well-established professional sources and these easily trump your opinion. Colonel Warden (talk) 23:11, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Nonsense? Did you read what I wrote? The awards are without encyclopedic merit. Please understand. Nothing else. I have no personal bias towards this winery either. Do forgive, I must admit to not having spotted the in-depth coverage in NYT in this mess. MURGH disc. 23:41, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The NYT reference is not long but it seems significant: "Even in the commonwealth, it is hard to find the much-honored Valhalla reds (like a cabernet franc called Gotterdammerung and a shiraz) that Dr. James Vascik, a neurosurgeon, produces 2,000 feet above the Roanoke Valley." If the NYT describes their wines as "much-honored" then their status is evidently notable. Q.E.D. Colonel Warden (talk) 00:00, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You do realize that the Wine Spectator coverage is essentially "tasting notes"? Are you aware that Wine Spectator reviews over 10,000 wines every year and that tasting notes are just as common as the hundreds of thousands of restaurant reviews that take place in magazine, newspapers and online forums across the globe? Having 2 wines reviewed by Wine Spectator doesn't infer ANY degree of notability. They certainly don't come even close to fulfilling any of WP:CORP's expectation for ...significant coverage in reliable, independent secondary sources.... Now let's look at the other "sources"--
  • New York Times-Actually where is this? High beam is not coming up with anything. Google is not coming up with anything promising nor does Google news include a NYT article. Ultimately searching the New York Times archive itself also produce zero results.
  • Vineyard & Winery Management-Where is this too? Again Google and Google news produce no usable RS. The magazine (which is not very notable itself) doesn't have a good archive search but searching magazine website also doesn't yield any results.
  • Washington Post? Let's see, the only mention at all is a brief tasting note on a 2001 Rosé featured the Post's wine review blog? A single tasting note? The WA Post blog does hundreds of tasting notes each year. This is substantial coverage? How is this different from what any mom and pop deli receives?
  • What others, let see local regional papers like Roanoke Times? Again brief mentions not much different than local regional papers talking about local restaurants
  • These questions can not be asked enough--What has this winery done that is notable apart from simply existing? How is this meager coverage any different than what the tens of thousands of Mom & Pop restaurants receive all the time? How are these meager, casual mentions and tastings notes coming close to the WP:CORP call for "...significant coverage in reliable, independent secondary sources..."? AgneCheese/Wine 00:08, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(Outdent) Ah, I see the NYT time now a general interest piece on Virginia wine where Valhalla gets a casual one line mention in a larger piece that is about a general topic. "Much honored"? A single, off hand comment is what you are staking your claims of notability on? Seriously? It is not even from Frank Prial who is the actual wine columnist for the NYT. It is a casual, brief mention in a travel piece. How many local mom and pop restaurants are "much honored" in their individual communities? I wonder how many articles in the New York Times Travel section notes these "much honored" local interest places? Those types of casual mentions in travel pieces is a very weak pillar to establish notable. AgneCheese/Wine 00:17, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So let me see if I can get this new standard of notability you're asserting straight. NYT pieces only count if they're written by the "the actual" wine columnist, AP articles only count if you can find them without using LexisNexis. Novel production methods only count if they're not reviving old ones. Let me just reiterate: We have here 2 Associated Press articles, one completely dedicated to this vineyard, several paragraphs with a brief interview in Wine Spectator, tasting notes in Wine Spectator, 1 mention in the NYT as "much-honored", tasting notes in the Post, and lots of hits in regional papers. We have a vineyard that is one of two in Virginia to use its production method and by numerous accounts is a standout winery in an up-and-coming region. I challenge you to apply that standard more broadly and see how many perfectly good articles come under the knife! Vivisel (talk) 01:36, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There is no "new standard" of notability being suggested here, only the standard given already in WP:CORP. The key word in that guideline is "substantial". You are mischaracterizing the NYT piece; it doesn't count not because of the author, but because of the insubstantial coverage, which was a 1-line passing mention in a travel article, thus failing WP:CORP. AP articles should be findable from AP itself; I believe you when you say you have found such an article through Lexis Nexis, but if the coverage is anything like the NYT, or a press release, then that would fail WP:CORP as well. You say one AP source is a 500 word piece devoted to this specific winery. Okay... but is that coverage significant in the context of the wine business? Tons of non-notable restaurants get reviewed all the time in notable publications, but that's simply something to be expected in that business, nothing unusual. Tasting notes and local coverage isn't relevant for a globally-relevant topic such as wine.
This whole argument illustrates the extent that WP:CORP doesn't address secondary coverage specifically related to wineries. For that, we have WP:NOTWINE as a proposed guideline. Within that guideline, see WP:RESTTEST for clarification on what coverage is appropriate. That is the position the 'delete' proponents are arguing from.
Now, I admit that there's a weak claim to notability through having a fairly unique production method, but it isn't uncommon to process wine underground under the influence of gravity. They certainly haven't pioneered that method or done anything to make them notable.
A winery needs to have coverage beyond what any other winery normally gets for simply existing, just like a restaurant. ~Amatulić (talk) 01:59, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please see Mzoli's - an article about a restaurant supported by references to the local press. This is not just any article but one which has been well-scrutinised by the Wikipedia community. This demonstrates that there is no consensus for your narrow, exclusive agenda. Our notability guideline makes it clear that this working definition is not importance or fame but the existence of reliable sources. If there are good sources then you pass whether you're a restaurant a winery, a lighthouse or whatever. That's why we have 3 million articles and counting. And it is this wide, comprehensive coverage which is Wikipedia's great strength. We are here to make available the "sum of human knowledge", not just some small fraction. Colonel Warden (talk) 06:52, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Whoa nelly, there is a lot of strawman flying! Let see if we can clean up some of the straw. First, I was commenting on the silliness of staking a winery's notability on the appearance of the quaint phrase "much honored" as if in one fell swoop the NYT granted divine notability to this humble winery by use of this phrase. The silliness was compounded by the fact that this divine notability wasn't even bestowed by the NYT wine writer. Second, the only consideration we are making is WP:CORP expectation of significant, independent coverage. If you notability rest on an obscure AP article that obviously wasn't even picked up on the newswire, then you are falling far short of WP:CORP's standards--whether or not you meet "my" standards is irrelevant. Third, it is is not "novel" if it has already been done before. That is kinda self evident. You could start a strange, new online "wiki" thing tomorrow but it will not be "novel". Fourth, yes the Wine Project does hold wine article strictly to Wikipedia policies. We don't give a rat's @$$ about this whole "inclusionist vs deletionist" thing. We only care about crafting a quality encyclopedia and we have numerous "perfectly good articles" to show for it. There is a reason why every single WP:WINE member that has contributed to this discussion has recommended delete. It is because we are constantly knee-deep involved in wine related articles and are intimately familiar with the fact that there are tens of thousands of wineries in the world and a scant few are truly notable. As abundantely evident by the painful attempts to squeeze water out of the rocks of meager reliable sources and significant coverage--this winery is categorically not one of the scant few wineries that are truly notable. AgneCheese/Wine 02:01, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, your project does not strictly hew to Wikipedia policies - it is trying to create its own local policies for this subject. If we apply the standard policies then this article is fine as we have numerous reliable sources and no tap-dancing about why they don't count. If we look through the category Category:Virginia wineries, we see that this winery and its article are the best of all those for this wine-growing region. The way you talk, there are thousands of better articles but they are not there. You should go clean up these other inferior articles and then get back to us after you have a proper basis for comparison. Colonel Warden (talk) 06:28, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Incorrect. As you have repeatedly demonstrate, it is difficult for even intelligent, good faith editors to objectively evaluate the quality and context of reliable sources for wine. People who are not familiar with the subject of the wine fall for the marketing and advertizing scams of thinking tasting notes, brief mentions in travel pieces, and medals indicate that a winery is "special". They fall for the romanticism of wine and forget that a winery is not that different from the many local mom & pop restaurants out. If a local coffee shop in Chancellorsville is considered to serve "the best coffee" in Virginia, and is noted with the same amount of meager coverage like a brief, 1 line mention in a NYT travel piece, would you be contending that coffee shop is notable? It would obviously be the "best of all those for this [coffee drinking] region"? The best garage band in Jacksboro, Texas? They only have around 4,000 people and not many garage bands so a band like my cousins which got scant coverage in Austin & Dallas newspapers must be notable since they are best of what garage bands are coming out of Jacksboro. It is a pretty poor argument to say just because an area doesn't have many figures in particular category, then we should lower the bar of notability and grade on a curve. AgneCheese/Wine 20:18, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Incorrect. There are entire books exclusively devoted to the wine industry of Virginia - The economics of wine grape production in Virginia‎; Virginia wine country; The cost of growing wine grapes in Virginia, etc and so it is a notable wine growing region. If this is the best of our articles on the matter then it is well worth keeping and building upon. It is the other articles which require attention from your project. Colonel Warden (talk) 23:39, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Umm...Notability is WP:NOTINHERITED. While the topic of Virginia wine is notable, that doesn't mean "the best" (a POV assessment, BTW) Virginia winery is notable. It certainly doesn't mean that the "best Wikipedia article" on a Virginia winery is notable either. (Also when did having a Wikipedia make you notable to then have a Wikipedia article? A tad circular there) Honestly it is a stretch if Valhalla even merits mentioning in the Virginia wine article. This logic is way off base. New York-style pizza is notable, and there are entire books devoted to it as well as many travel guides for communities across the US that makes mention of which ever restaurant has "the best" New York-style pizza. Would you honestly argue that kind of meager, trivial association of being "the best New York-style pizza in Bedford, Indiana" would merit a pizzeria a Wikipedia article? Again, a very poor, weak claim for notability. AgneCheese/Wine 01:18, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrary section break II

By dropping in WP:OWN, such a comment suggests one urgently needs to revisit the text and redigest what is being stated. DoriSmith may well be aware WikiProject Wine is not a policy but a group of people who have seen similar articles through wine related AFDs over time, and argued on a consistent basis of source availability. Compare this AFD which the colonel did not "patrol". MURGH disc. 08:32, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for providing this other example for comparison. The sources in that case do not seem significantly different in quality to what we have here. I see no sense in keeping one article but not the other as this would be an absurd inconsistency. We are not a Best of or Greatest Hits but a comprehensive encyclopedia and so should cover these topics in a thorough way. Colonel Warden (talk) 09:13, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Transparancy is in everyone's interest. But although there are some similarities in the press attention these winieries receive from their hometown newspapers, Jewell Towne (at this point representing a minimum threshold of notability) is covered by RS well beyond the sort of "honorable mention" of the NYT you cite, and in this context tasting notes and "yellow pages" is insufficient to make up the needed references. Please look more deeply into the differences. MURGH disc. 19:11, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No kidding. No one is claiming ownership but simply pointing out the fact that the editors who are constantly knee deep involved in wine issues and articles, are overwhelming agreeing that in the grand scheme of things this winery is not notable. We're not claiming ownership but rather calling a WP:DUCK, a duck. We've seen countless examples of both notable and non-notable wine topics in our time editing Wikipedia so when every single WP:WINE member who has commented on this AfD has recommended delete (for numerous valid reasons) on this wine article, that should be a red-flag that maybe this article you are fighting so hard far is not truly notable? Again, we don't care about this weird fight of "inclusionists vs deletionists" and the wine project is certainly not bring these articles up for AfD because we are so-called "deletionist". Rather, we are looking at this purely from an angle of Wikipedia's policies and what is best for the encyclopedia. This article shouldn't be "saved" just to score an inclusionist point for the WP:ARS but rather it should be objectively evaluated. Five wine project members have objectively evaluated this article based on Wikipedia's policies and on our knowledge and experience with dealing with wine subjects and we have all found this article sincerely lacking in tangible claims for notability. AgneCheese/Wine 20:28, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not seeing anything but hand-waving and arguments from authority to justify deletion of one article but retention of the other and so remain quite unconvinced. The article in question has adequate sources which, between them, tell us enough to support a modest article. Further research may well turn up more sources like the NYT source which no-one knew about until I found it. In this way the encyclopedia is improved and its coverage of wine deepened. Deletion of the article would do nothing to improve the encyclopedia. Colonel Warden (talk) 22:25, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Stop right there. Wikipedia is not an indiscrimminate collection of information. Coverage of wine is NOT "deepened" by including promotional puff pieces about every winery in existence, which is essentially what's going on with this article. Deletion of this article and others like it would certainly improve the encyclopedia. ~Amatulić (talk) 20:46, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But sir, these sources such as your NYT honourable mention is not sufficient as in-depth coverage of this subject. I would consider myself an inclusionist, and at this point I recommend that this article be removed from the WP fold and be userfied until the appropriate sources appear (which may well eventually happen). MURGH disc. 22:46, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No one is appealing to authority. Only common sense. If a person has never seen a duck, do you think they would have an easy time calling a duck, a WP:DUCK? They may think the animal has unusual feathers or makes weird noises but they probably would have trouble putting their finger on exactly what it is. When it comes to wine articles, the Wine Project has seen a lot of "ducks" and dealt with a lot of notable wine subjects as well as a lot of non-notable wine subject. As every wine project member who has taken the time to comment on this AfD has noted....this "duck" doesn't quack and fails in establishing any kind of notability. It is essentially only notable for "existing" which according to Wikipedia policies is not enough. A winery doesn't get a free pass on WP:CORP by the grand virtue of simply being a winery. AgneCheese/Wine 22:55, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You misrepresent the case. Multiple good sources have been presented which go beyond simple existence and multiple editors find these to be quite satisfactory. There is no case for deletion - not the slightest. Colonel Warden (talk) 23:20, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
According to Wikipedia policies like WP:CORP and WP:SIGCOV, we are certainly lacking in "multiple good sources" here. If this was an artisan baker, a garage band, a bed and breakfast, a corner street hot dog vendor, a neighborhood pharmacist or a local mom & pop restaurant these meager travel guides, casual, trivial, mentions and isolated regional general interest pieces sources would fail miserably in establish notability. Why again are we giving a winery a free pass on notability that we don't extend to other businesses? AgneCheese/Wine 01:26, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom, this is not a notable vineyard, and all the sources are primary sources / press releases. I LOL at anyone who cites the vineyard as "Award Winning" -- wine awards are quite literally a dime a dozen. Walk down any grocery store liquor aisle and you will see what I mean. JBsupreme (talk) 20:57, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In addition to this large feature story [11] carried by the Associated Press and a major metropolitan paper in North Carolina (the vineyard is in Virginia, so I'm not sure how papers in different states qualify as local, but I'll leave it to the deletionists to explain) the vineyard is also featured as one of seven in Fodor's guide to Virginia and Maryland (there are more than 50 vintners in Virginia and its a major industry in the state so to be featured in that way says something), is featured in East Coast wineries: a complete guide from Maine to Virginia By Carlo DeVito where it's noted that "Valhalla Vineyards make some of the best red wines on the entire east coast." There are oodles more sources on google news and google books. I'm not sure why this particular producer is being targeted by members of the wine project, but it clearly meets the general notability guideline and wp:corp. And I voted weak delete on the other winery mentioned in this discussion, so I have no problem deleting ones that aren't covered substantially in independent reliable souces. But this fourteen year old winery that has a 2,000 square foot cave is a major and notable producer that clearly merits inclusion. I originally said "weakly" notable, before I went looking into the other sources available online and there are many, they aren't just local, and the coverage is substantial. ChildofMidnight (talk) 21:50, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It disappointing if the distinct differences aren't apparent. In the Valhalla case there is: a few stories in the devoted local newspaper Roanoke Times, a few paragraphs in one Wine Spectator piece, a sentence containing the word "honor" in the New York Times and the AP interest story which was for whatever reasons picked up by Wilmington Morning Star in 98, before they were even able to sell wine. The tasting notes and local competition accolades are entirely moot. That they have since been included in 2 tourist guides covering eastern seaboard wine routes is not cause for celebration, merely directory participation. Any major wine region has scores of such books, and by this threshold, thousands of wine producers globally have such considerably stronger media portfolios. Wikipedia must not become a wine-tour directory, and as such can't blindly assign wine-tour guides as WP:RS. MURGH disc. 09:16, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It is a strawman and ad hominem to call the Wine Project members "deletionists" and targeting this producer just because we are overwhelming agreeing that this winery is not notable. If someone nominated a truly notable wine subject, we would be just as "inclusionist" as anyone else trying to establish it's notability. Truth be told, we certainly don't always agree on things as even a casual glance at the WT:WINE archives would prove. It just happens in this case, people who actively work with wine related subjects can clearly see how lacking in notability this winery is. Of the tens of thousands of wineries in this world, Valhalla Vineyards is not one of the scare few that are truly notable. They just aren't. There is no valid, encyclopedic or Wikipedia policy related reason to defend it outside of scoring so called "inclusionist victory". We should be evaluating this article on its merits not as a "symbolic point scoring" endeavor between inclusionists and deletionist. Now about those merits...
  • North Carolina/Virginia certainly fall into the "regional sphere" of local with them giving WP:UNDUE weight to topics of regional interest. Up here in the Pacific Northwest papers in Oregon, Washington and Idaho regularly cover local "regional" topics with the same undue weight. But regardless this "large feature story" is talking about converting a peach orchard into a winery. As I asked before (and the "keep" voters continually fail to address) how is this any different than a mom & pop converting an old building into a restaurant? In the wine world, land that has been used for orchards or other uses are converted all the time. How is this notable? Is it the cave? That is not even remotely notable in the wine world and has been done for thousands of years and is still widely practiced in places like Champagne. It is like saying a druggist is notable for being one of the few druggists in a particular state to go back to using mortar and pestle. AgneCheese/Wine 01:26, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Our guideline explains that notability is not fame, importance, being unusual or special. It is defined solely by having been noted or noticed in print. It does not matter if the topic is quite ordinary and average - it is covered then it is notable. But in this case, the winery is not ordinary or average - it has coverage which gives it good accolades and distinction. And so our cup is full. Colonel Warden (talk) 23:20, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Considering that nearly every possible person, place, product or idea has been noticed in print obviously our guideline requires a tad more than that quaint oversimplification. In fact, it does. It's called significant coverage WP:SIGCOV which states "Significant coverage" means that sources [note the plural] address the subject directly in detail, and no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention but it need not be the main topic of the source material." One isolated article talking about an orchard field being converted into a winery, does not equate to significant coverage anymore than a news article about an old building being converted into a new pizza parlor does. At best this is WP:ONEVENT, which is obviously not a reason to keep an article. One isolated article alone talking about a winery using a common wine cave for storage does not equate to significant coverage anymore than a local news article about the neighborhood druggist giving personal, old fashion care with his mortar and pestle. Casual, trivial mentions in travel pieces and travel guides does not equate to significant coverage any more than a local bed and breakfast inn being mentioned in general interest pieces about the region. The first time I was mentioned "in print" was when I won a regional science fair in the 3rd grade. I received a lovely one paragraph write up in the St. Louis Post Dispatch, Chicago Tribune, Kansas City Star and a few other smaller papers. But I assure you, being "noticed in print" doesn't qualify me for a Wikipedia article. AgneCheese/Wine 01:04, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Casual mentions in travel guides are poor claims of notability and wouldn't fly in any other article. We are not WikiTravel. Are travel guides used to establish notability of Bed and Breakfast inns or corner street hot dog carts? There are the "oodles" of google books hits in travel guides for all of those too. Why should wineries get a free pass with such a poor claim of notability? How is this winery different than a B&B with the same kind of meager coverage? AgneCheese/Wine 22:22, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, I tend to agree with ChildofMidnight's rationale. I do understand why articles like this drive Agne and some others crazy, but when there is sufficient sourcing to write the article, I don't see the benefit of deletion. The WP:WINERY proposal notes, "the abundance of 'non-trivial and reliable published works' in the world of wine presents presents a challenge for determining whether a particular wine business warrants an article in Wikipedia, because this requirement could be "technically" met by many non-notable wineries. Therefore, Wikipedia should include articles on only those wine businesses with some substantial degree of notability and contribution to the wine world." I fear implementing this uniformly and successfully (such that wikipedia only addresses an agreed-upon upper echelon of wineries) would probably require a level of general editor expertise that Wikipedia will never have.--Milowent (talk) 06:12, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But this is a point of contention, because the sourcing 'isn't sufficient for writing a good encyclopedic article. Local paper writeups and 2 tourist guides doesn't amount to wide reliable coverage and does deep damage to the kind of level we need when limiting the scope of WP coverage. There is wine made in every 50 US state, and most countries on earth between 30 and 50 degrees latitude, and the number of wine-producing entities that could easily match this sort of sparse source coverage is mind-boggling. I have neighbours who grow vines to our local paper's amusement that would then fulfill criteria for a WP article. Avoiding that is the benefit of deletion. A far cry from upper echelon exclusivity. MURGH disc. 23:00, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why is this so much more taxing on the competence of general editors than establishing the notability of, say, biographies of physicists and molecular biologists, where few editors would understand their research papers but still absolutely not each and every Ph.D. in the world would be considered notable? By the "standards" (if that is the term to use) that the "keep" voters apply in this case, a minimum of tens of thousands of wineries (and that's a low count - it could well be over 100,000) in the world would be considered "notable". At least if you think that the same criteria should apply outside the U.S. and be applied to sources published in other languages than English. Tomas e (talk) 10:41, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So you are another "keep voter" advocating that wineries get a free pass on notability that Wikipedia would not extend to other topics? AgneCheese/Wine 19:13, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just the opposite actually. I am arguing that wineries are being treated the same as other topics (as you know, I'm familiar with the debate over lists of wineries and have come around to understanding why having directories of wineries in a page is not a good idea). Here, however, there are arguments being made that wineries shouldn't be treated the same as other topics, because, well, they get too much citable coverage and that coverage doesn't really mean they are notable.--Milowent (talk) 03:15, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • We do not grade on a curve. In other words, there is no set maximum number of articles that we will accept for a given topic area. Instead we have a threshold of acceptability and, if an article passes that threshold, it is acceptable. As a consequence we have 3 million articles and counting - many thousands of athletes, politicians, places, asteroids, etc. See Wikipedia is not paper. Colonel Warden (talk) 12:17, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Dear Colonel, I recommend WP:NOT for close reading, such as "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information". Including tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of non-notable wineries is exactly that. Tomas e (talk) 13:03, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please see Slippery slope which explains the fallacious nature of your rhetoric. We are not discussing tens of thousands of articles here, just one. The sources available are adequate to support this per our notability norms and that's that. If we should have many more related articles appearing then we can cross that bridge when we come to it; either accepting the situation or merging the content as appropriate. Colonel Warden (talk) 23:18, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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