Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ukraine genocide

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. In the sense of "not delete". As has been pointed out, not even the nominator wants this article deleted; instead, the discussion is about whether this should be a redirect, a disambiguation page or an overview article about the several genocides in Ukraine. That is a content dispute that needs resolving on the article talk page, not at AfD. Sandstein 21:25, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ukraine genocide

Ukraine genocide (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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This term is being thrown-around, but it is just political rhetoric at this point. This dab should be returned to the prior redirect to Holodomor, a true genocide. MB 01:30, 8 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Disambiguations-related deletion discussions. MB 01:30, 8 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Agree and some commentary. I do agree with the nominator, that we should avoid incorrectly labelling things a genocide, or implying the war is a genocide, without that being a verifiable statement. I searched WP:MoS before commenting and the most relevant policy I could find was WP:NPOVTITLE which directs to guide article titles neutrally. Is WP:CRIM relevant here, as to call it a genocide is to call it a crime....I'm not sure. I think the crime guidance here tends to assume crimes done by civilians. But I also wonder if this is a AfD discussion, you're not proposing to delete, are you, you are proposing to change a redirect. I feel this is an important issue, and might warrant more eyes on it than just the AfD viewers. Suggesting something is a genocide is a big deal and we need to be very careful about that. CT55555 (talk) 01:56, 8 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Yes, I am suggesting restoring the prior redirect. Redirecting is a common outcome at AFD; I thought about just reverting to restore the redirect but instead brought it here for discussion. MB 02:02, 8 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep at least for Holodomor and Bucha massacre, the latter of which has been referred to as "genocide" by several sources.

1. [Lyudmyla Denisova, the Ukrainian Parliament's Human Rights Commissioner] said Ukraine had evidence of "genocide of Ukrainian people" and of military crimes, adding that rape was "the new weapon" of Russian forces."^[1]

2. [Kyiv mayor Vitali] Klitschko tells German daily Bild that "what happened in Bucha and other suburbs of Kyiv can only be described as genocide."^[2]

3. "We will do everything possible to ensure that those who committed these crimes do not go unpunished and can appear before the International Criminal Court to respond to these alleged crimes against humanity, war crimes, and why not say it — genocide," [Spanish prime minister Pedro] Sanchez continued.^[3]

4. Attacks on civilians by Russian forces in the Ukrainian town of Bucha do not "look far short of genocide", [UK] Prime Minister Boris Johnson has said.^[4]

5. Polish president: 'Hard to deny' genocide took place in Ukraine^[5]

6. (Dissenting view) Ukraine: As Russia faces ‘genocide’ charge, experts urge caution^[6]

There's several more sources already discussing the war crimes during the Russian invasion of Ukraine as possible genocide, which brings the association beyond WP:OR. Whether or not it actually will be prosecuted as such internationally remains to be seen, but the term is already in the public discourse to refer to Russia's actions in Ukraine. Qwaiiplayer (talk) 12:50, 8 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think we need a high bar for this and the bar should be higher than some politicians saying. Even your #4 is clearly saying almost. CT55555 (talk) 13:11, 8 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Concur with CT55555, the above are all "political rhetoric" by parties that don't have a NPOV. The existence of the dab is an endorsement in WP's voice of this view that greatly "waters-down" the meaning of the term. MB 15:35, 8 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree that it's an endorsement of the view. It's a reflection of the current discourse. The purpose of the DAB is to navigate users to the right space, and if there are sources referring to Russian actions in Ukraine as genocide, then it's reasonable to assume that users will be searching for the relevant articles as such. Qwaiiplayer (talk) 15:46, 8 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• I think this should be deleted, as it is too ambiguous a term. If it is kept, redirect to the Holodomor article. The same goes for the Ukrainian genocide redirect, which I re-targeted here for consistency. —-QueenofBithynia (talk) 14:43, 8 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If the article is deleted I have a grim feeling someone should keep a copy of the text. Also, propose a disambiguation on "Ukranian Genocides" to be targeted by the original typo-redirects. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.230.177.165 (talk) 00:26, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep of course. Assuming only one of these topics existed, this would be easily kept at RfD as a plausible search term. The same standard should therefore be applied here. Elli (talk | contribs) 22:21, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Elli No one is suggesting this be deleted. Do you mean keep this dab or restore the original redirect? That is the real question. MB 23:17, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Keep the disambiguation. And there is at least one person here suggesting this be deleted. For the record, the action for proposing what you want to do would've been to restore the redirect, and have those who want a disambiguation page created open a discussion at WP:RFD. Elli (talk | contribs) 23:35, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Elli, Sorry, but for the record, I have seen cases in the past where people have said using RFD to effectively delete a "content" page was the wrong venue; RFD is not for content deletion even though the result of an RFD can be content creation (a dab). MB 00:13, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Nevermind, you're right about the venue, I misremembered what the policy and current best practices were. Regardless, I support keeping the disambiguation page as-is. Elli (talk | contribs) 03:23, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong keep. The Ukrainian parliament today just recognized it as genocide and also appealed to the international community to recognize it. I have already added the reactions of statesmen, I think we can already conclude that many states recognize this as an act of genocide. Uliana245 (talk 20:43, 14 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep The article is currently extremely biased, but a page regarding allegations is definitely notable. X-Editor (talk) 21:20, 14 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep There are more specific subjects to be included, and there is a need to cover the subject on a broader scale. The deportation of the Crimean Tatars is an example of a Ukraine genocide. Rafael Lemkin actually wrote that the famine was only part of a four-pronged extended campaign which constituted “perhaps the classic example of Soviet genocide,” a “long-term policy of liquidation of non-Russian peoples by the removal of select parts,” and “only the logical successor of such Tsarist crimes,” and he names specific acts from at least 1920 to 1949.[1] In his essay and follow-up interview, Putin himself drew a connection between his own attack and Russian-empire and Soviet crimes when he called Ukrainians an “anti-Russia project” that was conceived in the “Middle Ages” and created by Lenin. —Michael Z. 19:52, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.