Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Troy Melton

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. While IMDB isn't a reliable source, it appears there is agreement that the coverage found during the discussion is sufficient. (non-admin closure) NemesisAT (talk) 15:36, 29 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Troy Melton

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Troy Melton (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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Struggling to find any reliable sources with a WP:BEFORE. Does not appear to be a notable topic. ––FormalDude talk 11:27, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep. If IMDB is wrong about his military service, then perhaps IMDB should also be notified as to the error, however, for now, it is the one reference I had to note/verify his service to buff out his bio here on Wikipedia for fans/users...but the IMDB ref is primarily to focus on his Acting/Stunt Career, so if his Service cannot be verified, feel free to remove that bit. However, I don't think the whole page should be deleted, as I created it to note his many roles in Gunsmoke, the Source being taken Directly from the Credits that run at the end of Each Episode on the DVDs. He was mentioned in so many episodes that it seemed to be a glaring lack of a link on the List of Gunsmoke Episodes page. GreyElfGT (talk) 22:07, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I should also note, prior to adding Bio/Filmography info here, there was nothing on the Troy Melton page except a Redirect to the movie page "Young Guns of Texas" which seemed entirely inappropriate. GreyElfGT (talk) 22:30, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I didn't vote delete, I simply commented on one aspect of the article. His military service appears to have been ordinary (or at least didn't generate any awards that would contribute to notability from that angle). In any case, he would be far more notable for his stunt work if it can be properly verified. If I recall correctly, iMDB isn't considered RS in most cases. There do appear to be other, proper, sources for that, though. Intothatdarkness 23:30, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    "...iMDB not RS.." ?? what do you mean by "RS" ? ...again, I'm mainly concerned with linking actors to the Gunsmoke list of episodes page... I'm updating that page with Guest Cast credits for each episode as I get done watching the DVDs, so the source (at least for Gunsmoke) is a Direct Source. I'm simply using IMDB as a confirming ref.... and to buff out the rest of the page... is that not appropriate? As for other confirming sources, (albeit for uncredited Stunt work, versus actual Credited Acting Roles) it looks like a few confirming refs have been already found (above) in this delete discussion, so if someone could add those to the page in the appropriate places, I'd be grateful. Again, I changed the Redirect to a actual Actor/Person Page just to get the ball rolling in the hopes that others will contribute and add whatever necessary refs are needed... and/or corrections.... as well as a Person InfoBox, Actor Photo, et al. For instance, I also created a new page for "Tom Reese (actor)" from Gunsmoke Credits, and unlike my Troy Melton edits, no one seems to have a prob with the Tom Reese page... it's not a candidate for deletion, and several subsequent edits have already been made by other users/bots, and I even got a Thank You for it... and just today, I created a new page for Edmund Hashim (another glaring omission at Wikipedia). Anyway... thanks for the clarification and comments. Hope we can get this resolved quickly. GreyElfGT (talk) 07:29, 20 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • RS means reliable source. IMDb accepts user submitted data and is not very good about actually confirming any of it. This opens the door for people to add just about anything to an IMDb listing, whether it be true or false. One of the best examples I can give as far as how bad the verification can be at IMDb actually involves a Marvel film. Someone named Gretel Ashzinger (think that's her name) actually managed to add her name to the IMDb listing for one of the Captain America films, Winter Soldier, claiming that she was going to be playing She-Hulk. How we found out about it was that she tried creating a Wikipedia article where she'd listed this role. Looking back at the deleted history, it looks like she also tried claiming she was in Agents of SHIELD as well. My point is that IMDb really can't be used to confirm anything. You can use it as a starting point, but anything you take should be verified in another source. At no point should IMDb be the sole place you get any info. You can use primary sources (as long as they can be verified) or independent, secondary reliable sources, but IMDb is neither as far as Wikipedia goes. ReaderofthePack(formerly Tokyogirl79) (｡◕‿◕｡) 12:41, 20 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    That's all fine and dandy, but if not IMDB then What? Name some Primary Sources where I can find Reliable Ref's about an Actor's Bio & Roles throughout their entire career, including Birth/Death & Real Name (vs Stage Name)... especially those Actors that have roles dating back before I was born. I mean, I even tried creating a page for James Almanzar based SOLELY on NINE Verifiable Episodes of Gunsmoke taken DIRECTLY from the DVD Credits, not bothering to copy all the IMDB Bio/TV/Filmography info to the page, and it wound up getting Draft-Sandboxed because it didn't "show significant coverage" ... I mean, I can't even get the ball rolling with what I CAN verify, let alone for any other notable roles in other shows/movies... This is TOO Frustrating. GreyElfGT (talk) 08:27, 21 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @GreyElfGT: There is a long list of sources that the Wikipedia community has deemed generally reliable or unreliable at WP:RSP. ––FormalDude talk 11:48, 22 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wikipedia is to be built on coverage in reliable secondary sources that are indepdent of the subject. IMDb is not reliable, we cannot use it. Wikipedia is not to be built on primary sources. We need to find secodnary sources that are reliable and indepdent of the subject. We need more than one such sources. The TV guide entry may meet that, but I am less than convinced it is an indepth mention, that is another requirement. Wikipedia follows secondary source coverage of topics, we do not cover topics that have only been mentioned in databases like IMDb and in passing mentions and primary sources. So unless people can show more and better sourcing, we need to delete this article. The listed added sources above may be enough, but we need clearer indications of exactly where in the source the information is. Also, we need to be sure these are actual substantial sources. Let me be clear, Wikipedia is not supposed to be based on primary sources. In creating articles you want to consult secondary sources, not primary sources. We need to cut way down on direct references to the US census, immigration records and the social security death index in articles. The US census can be mentioned if you find a secondary source that provides analysis and context for the US census mention, but Wikipedia editors should not assume they have the expertise or competence to directly use the US census as a source and should avoid doing so. If a fact, such as a year of birth, is not asserted by reliable secondary sources, we should not be asserting it based on primary sources period. The point of Wikipedia is not to generate new knowledge from primary sources, but to collect and make easily availalbe knowledge contained in secondary sources.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:24, 21 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    There are clearly some secondary sources for this individual, as indicated in the Keep vote above. With regard to Gunsmoke, there are some secondary sources available for the show (and I believe the article lists most of them). Alternately, it seems if you can find enough obituaries for someone they're considered notable. Intothatdarkness 14:47, 21 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • So, I updated the page with Two of the Ref's so graciously provided above for "Hollywood Stunt Performers" but I didn't have access to the OTHER Two Ref's, so I could neither verify their Content, nor Cite Page #'s or other details, but if anyone else can, please do so. These two are:
    • Obituaries in the Performing Arts, 1996
    • the "Stunt Man Article" at The Tennessean from Nashville, Tennessee
I also added a link to his Filmography @ Turner Classic Movies... Hopefully y'all consider that a more RS source for his Credits? If not, I would still ask you to point me at some other site for a complete list that is considered "RS" as I'll need more outlets for verification in the future, if I am to confirm & provide Ref's for other Actor pages. So, the other question is, what type of Source is it considered when you Transcribe Directly from the DVD Credits? Primary, Secondary or what? I can think of no better verification than taking it directly from the Publisher's product (i.e., the DVDs published by CBS Broadcasting, Inc). Again, Thank You all for your help/mentor-ship, and will my most recent edits qualify to remove the Candidate for Deletion template? GreyElfGT (talk) 04:36, 22 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I should also note, his Roles in Gunsmoke are not just as a Stuntman; he also has Speaking/Character Actor roles (as noted in the page's TV credits), and I assume that's also true for the rest of his 40-50 year career. GreyElfGT (talk) 05:13, 22 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@GreyElfGT: You should be able to view the Tennessean article here. BeanieFan11 (talk) 14:44, 22 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hey! Thanks! That's a great help in that it confirms the bit about "migrating to LA during the Great Depression" (i.e., circa 1931-1935, beginning when he was 12) AND about his Service (a 3-year tour starting in '42, w/31 months overseas). I'll go ahead & add this ref to the page. GreyElfGT (talk) 15:28, 22 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've added the obituaries in the performing arts ref, but one thing was that it was the wrong book I've cited. It's corrected. MoviesandTelevisionFan (talk) 21:26, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, I see at least two pieces of SIGCOV: Hollywood Stunt Performers, 1910s-1970s: A Biographical Dictionary, 2d ed. and the article from The Tennessean (available here). There are also two that I do not have access to but appear to be SIGCOV: Obituaries in the Performing Arts, 1996 and Hollywood Stunt Performers: A Dictionary and Filmography of Over 600 Men and Women, 1922-1996. Even if the last two are not significant, we still have two pieces of SIGCOV, meeting GNG ("A topic is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list when it has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject"). BeanieFan11 (talk) 14:41, 22 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep has received some notable coverage, agree with comments above. >> Lil-unique1 (talk) — 23:24, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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