Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tolulope Arotile (2nd nomination)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. I'm not seeing obvious evidence of mass canvassing here to discount opinions from experienced and long standing editors. Spartaz Humbug! 08:03, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Tolulope Arotile

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Tolulope Arotile (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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I see no change from the prior AFD other than her death. Still isn't notable. Praxidicae (talk) 12:32, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 12:38, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 12:38, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Nigeria-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 12:38, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the Article Rescue Squadron's list of content for rescue consideration. Andrew🐉(talk) 22:00, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

KEEP broke a 55 year old record of the Nigerian Airforce to become THE FIRST NIGERIAN FEMALE COMBAT HELICOPTER PILOT, also first Nigerian to ever fly the AgustaWestland AW109 fighter-jet in Nigeria,acquired 460 hours of flight in helicopter which was an outstanding performance for a combat pilot,fought in numerous battles against insurgency in the North-Central region of Nigeria including Operation GAMA AIKI (use google) her most recent, clearly passes WP:GNG, WP:ANYBIO and as well as #2 WP:SOLDIER--Brain7days (talk) 12:56, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

How is any of this different from the discussion at the May AFD? Praxidicae (talk) 13:04, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose that's a rhetorical question because i am not here to take questions from you, defend your stand by pointing out which of the above highlighted notability it fails. I didn't create,neither was i aware of the May AFD and for me to have re-created an article on the same subject is a logical reason to keep it. Thanks--Brain7days (talk) 13:21, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps you should take a moment to read it and enlighten yourself as to the reason for my nomination. Praxidicae (talk) 13:27, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Her death has actually changed the article, if you are insinuating that an apple did not change except that it fell from the tree, then you mean it's still on the tree and could still be plucked, moreso might i quote form WP:SOLDIER If, for instance, there is enough information in reliable sources to include details about a person's birth, personal life, education and military career, then they most likely warrant a stand-alone article i don't see where it states the first X in country Y does not establish notability--Brain7days (talk) 13:59, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Your responding to every Delete comment does nothing to further your argument, nor does the implication of racism.Mztourist (talk) 06:15, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
His comment doesn't apply in anyway being married to a black woman obviously doesn't guarantee notability and wikipedia is 19 years old what do you expect a decrease in x,y articles? that's laughable--Brain7days (talk) 14:15, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In my opinion, his comment is valid. ~dom Kaos~ (talk) 14:19, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete I think some did not understand my comment about hypotheticals. The point is being the first x to do y does not transform a person to notability, unless of course we have enough coverage of this first x to do y to constitute passing GNG because of this coverage. Unlike some other editors I have never argued that just because the coverage is "this person is the first x to do y" does not mean it does not count. However we have to look at how substantive it is. To bring up one issue, if we have an article on a political candidate that merely says the subject is the "first x to run for y office" but it does not provide sustantive coveage to the person's campaign, and is so short it is not actually substantial covage it is not a sign of notability. On another deletion discussion we are dealing with an 11 year old article that is either a total hoax, or just built on a person's personal website that makes downright false claims. There are so many "first x to do y" claims we need to make sure we follow reliable sources in the matter. One last note, people who lacked notability at the time of their death can and do become notable long after they died. If Wikipedia had existed in the 1940s and someone had tried to create an article on Anne Frank at the time of her death it would have been deleted. Even trying to think of what that would have looked like creates too many counter-factual issues to think through well. The fact that Wikipedia started in 2001 and it is not really to 2004 it starts coming to be sizeable, and then it takes a few years more to start realizing fully that just letting everyone create any article they want has negative consequesnce makes things complex. We used to tolerate articles on every person who ever held a title like Miss Nevada or Miss Nevada USA, although we really only ever got people creating articles on holders of even those titles for a few years, we used to treat any major party nominee for congress in the US as notable, and there are some other examples. In the matter of articles on places and characters in fiction the history of what is considered notable is an even bigger mess, although the number of articles on actors and actresses sourced only to non-reliable sources, many of these articles having stood over 10 years, does show that we have a really big problem with having even a small semblance of anything like following notability guidelines. I know this goes way beyond the article at hand.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:30, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete not notable enough since last AfD ~ Amkgp 💬 14:46, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Praxidicae I had nominated earlier WP:G4 but someone overturned it. See here ~ Amkgp 💬 14:49, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Discussions such as these gives me headache, some articles are about the values it brings to the readers, Nigeria as a nation has missed and omitted alot of event in her history book, i guess you really don't understand that. a reasonable editor will still re-create an article on the subject in the near future and you may not be there to delete it. Y'all do yor thing i'm outta here--Brain7days (talk) 14:46, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Per the previous comment, reiterating my recommendation to salt. ~dom Kaos~ (talk) 15:15, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete — Fails WP:SOLDIER. Furthermore I trust Praxidicae’s judgement & general knowledge on Wikipedia as Wikipedia is her forte, so if she says that nothing has changed since the last AFD(I can’t view deleted pages thus I can’t really remember) then it probably hasn’t changed & and as such this article qualifies for a CSD G4. I’m not sure why the correctly placed CSD G4 by Amkgp was 'declined' by the Nigerian editor. A quick glance of the article shows at most they possess bare notability & as Johnpacklambert correctly put it, people could become more notable even in death. @Brain7days I’d suggest you read WP:GNG meticulously before proceeding to create anymore articles & even at that, you still may need to pass the article through the WP:AFC process. Cheers dear colleague. Celestina007 (talk) 15:27, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • The fact that the article was last deleted only 2 months ago suggests that it is unlikely anything has changed. I would actually urge all editors to stop doing direct creation of articles and always run articles through the articles for creation process.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:32, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Johnpacklambert, Exactly! If an article was deleted in May & recreated in July then one’s initiative should by default tell them that nothing would have significantly changed since then. Furthermore if WP made it mandatory for all articles to pass through the AFC process a lot of all these stress would be reduced by at least half. Celestina007 (talk) 15:40, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think the creator is not trying to understand what all the editors are trying to explain here for their opinion instead trying to divert to other things ~ Amkgp 💬 15:42, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Celestina007 beacause the Nigerian editor understand the value of the article and it signifance to the Nigerian people. And don't get me started on why you trust paraxidicae's judgement, we both know the story. Moreso, I AM NOT A COLLEAGUE OF YOURS as far as wikipedia is concern.--Brain7days (talk) 15:45, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ouchhhhh! Celestina007 (talk) 15:48, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Brain7days enlighten me. What is the story here? Praxidicae (talk) 15:57, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The wikipedia community need to understand that all wikipedia guidelines gave room for exceptional cases and one of those cases is our subject of article, but i have come to discern that many editors do not bother about exceptional cases, they do not logically see the value of an article to it targeted audience, they are quick to exterminate harmless articles all in the name of good faith. Editors who voted delete are Indian, British, and American respectively that is why it is easy for them to delineate a first x in country y which is clearly irrational in this case but i do not expect them to understand this because they really do not know and i am here to enlighthen their perception as regards our subject of article. In a country that is tainted of bigotry, nepotism and judicial acrimony, Tolulope Arotile grew up in a society of unambigous discrimination against the girl child, they are been married off at a younger age, barely 2% of the girl population made it to the university, they are being condemned to the kitchen as full housewives and seldomly participate in matters of the nation. She went on to graduate with an Hons in Mathematics, broke a 55 year old jinx to became a combat helicopter pilot, she was a venerate in the eyes of an average Nigerian girl. This young girl was killed in a freak accident that does not resonates with any yoruba intellect, her death is becoming to generate a national controversy as Gani Adams and other social group(paticularly from her tribe) are beginning to discountenanced the explanation to her untimely death (but how do we add these information if the article is being strangled at birth?). This is not to berate every editor who voted otherwise but it is a clarion call on everyone to not be insensitive with every article especially one that has to do with a diversed group and or region as it may fuel ethnic dissension (see George Floyd's talk page)--Brain7days (talk) 05:56, 17 July 2020 (UTC).[reply]

  • Speedy keep: it beats my imagination to see this article nominated for deletion. Does the editor who nominated it for deletion bothered to conduct at least a simple WP:BEFORE nomination? It appears to me that some editors take pride in the number of articles they nominate for deletion without checking to see that an article qualifies deletion. The subject of this article meets WP:GNG and WP:SOLDIER but some have argued here that the subject fails WP Soldier maybe because the subject did not fight in world War. A simple Google search results have shown that the president of Nigeria, the current and immediate past presidents of the Nigerian Senate, a former vice president of Nigeria, the governors of 19 Northern states (Northern Governors Forum) have paid tribute to the subject of this article. All these tributes can be seen in a Google search. Jokolis (talk) 7:35, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
@Mztourist, don’t worry about the editor. They are obviously not new & are a either a sock or a returning blocked Nigerian editor. I’ve watched their page now & would observe edit pattern & history to reveal the master sock or the returning user. Eitherway as usual, I’d always nab them no matter how clever they appear to be. Celestina007 (talk) 01:00, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Mztourist, in case you missed it. They have been blocked for sockpuppetry just as I rightly guessed. Thanks MER-C for the swift nabbing & action. Celestina007 (talk) 17:07, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Noted thanks! Mztourist (talk) 03:13, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. WP:ONEEVENT, it appears. While being the first women do to x in country z is interesting, I don't think this is enough, and she wasn't written about until she died. Sadly, outside being the first Xyz and dying she hasn't left any mark on history. I don't think this is enough to get her into the encyclopedia (also, WP:NOTNEWS, WP:NOTOBIT). Either way I am also concerned about the copyright status of the picture used which it's claimed to be 'own work' by a not very active user... --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:47, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. The first woman to hold a national post like this is generally notable. Normally I wouldn't challenge such a recent AfD (even though I disagreed with the outcome), but these are unusual circumstances (few people die so soon after losing their article at AfD) and the wide coverage and obituaries since her death clearly prove notability. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:15, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • WP:SNOW Wikipedia:Speedy keep broke a 55 year old record of the Nigerian Airforce to become THE FIRST NIGERIAN FEMALE COMBAT HELICOPTER PILOT, also first Nigerian to ever fly the AgustaWestland AW109 fighter-jet in Nigeria,acquired 460 hours of flight in helicopter which was an outstanding performance for a combat pilot,fought in numerous battles against insurgency in the North-Central region of Nigeria including Operation GAMA AIKI (use google) her most recent, clearly passes WP:GNG, WP:ANYBIO and as well as #2 WP:SOLDIER Given the present sourcing, this AFD is a travesty. Clearly no compliance (pretended or otherwise) with WP:Before. Moreover, this this picture is worth a thousand words. Article and sourcing is now what it was when the AFD was started. WP:HEY 7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:36, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
7&6=thirteen, bit of a choker that the picture is not worth any words at all now :D ——Serial 12:28, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep her position as the first-ever female combat helicopter pilot in the Nigerian Air Force is notable. If she was the second perhaps she would not be notable. She has SIGCOV in sources like CNN. Lightburst (talk) 19:54, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep if she was British or American nobody would be asking these questions. Nigeria is the largest population in Africa and she has been a notable first, plus her death is itself notable GrimRob (talk) 20:59, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep Before I start, l'm extending my gratitude to User:Brain7days and user:Andrew Davidson for standing firm and strong, this article with no contemplating clearly pass WP:GNG and WP:ANYBIO, those suggesting delete are not making the suggestion base on any rules, just beating around the bush, trying to explain something else, not contrary to the real reason, which is not according to the basics rules of Wikipedia's notability, let me make this clear and simple, Notability in Wikipedia is base on Independent Secondary Reliable Sources, and I see them in here Tolulope Arotile. CNN, Vanguard, Media Trust, P.M. News, Africa News, The Punch and BBC, these are National and international Independent Secondary reliable sources, enough to establish notability. I assure you this, in the whole Nigerian related articles, these are the best press release references you will be seeing, no more than this, there are no any other press release better than those in Nigeria. if those references are not enough to establish notability, tell me what reference do you want to see? Please if you don’t know Nigerian affairs stop scaling its affairs.
    Take a look at the rationale provided by User:Dream Focus, look into it carefully, that is enough to establish notability. currently, Tolulope Arotile is known by every Nigerian, Yes! I mean every Nigerian, because of her duty as a Nigerian soldier, and her story was told and spread everywhere, with more controversy on her death. She is in Nigerian Radio News, Television and Newspapers, a country with the highest population in Africa, imagine! And some users here are still arguing about her notability, I get to understand that you are not following Nigerian news.
    Jokolis you'v got it right, "It appears to me that some editors take pride in the number of articles they nominate for deletion without checking to see that an article qualifies deletion", and I didn’t see a barn star for that! I appreciate their effort in keeping Wikipedia clean, but I criticize their effort in” they nominate for deletion without checking to see that an article qualifies deletion" let them be proud by the number of article they’ve deleted and we will be proud by the number of articles we have saved, I prefer to be a savior, just like the angels.
    Piotrus Either way you are concerned about the copyright status of the picture used, that has nothing to do with her Notability, with or without the picture, and we are not concerned with the status of her picture here, with or without free license the picture carries no weight to establish notability, so take it to commons and nominate the picture for deletion, you are out of the line by making a diversion.
    Thanks to you for bringing up this Fighter_pilot#Female_fighter_pilots and this Nicky Smith (RAF officer), may be by now enough is enough for a neutral person.--- An@ss_koko(speak up) 09:23, 18 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Necrothesp and Andrew Davidson - clearly meets GNG. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:45, 18 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I won’t bother to read the screaming match going on up there, but from what I have seen and my own perception of notability, she passed it in her lifetime—even if the recognition and coverage of it from reliable sources has mainly come after her death. Trillfendi (talk) 20:53, 18 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. So much has been said already about this nom, the subject of this article has clearly pass this minimum criteria ANYBIO and the rational given by these users Andrew, Necrothesp and Anasskoko has supported it enough to be here. Em-mustapha talk 09:50, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
These obituaries This obituary Akinpelu, Yusuf (July 16, 2020). "OBITUARY: Tolulope Arotile: Nigeria's first female combat helicopter pilot dies in accident". Premium Times. Kingsley, Omonobi. "How NAF's first female combat helicopter pilot died in accident". The Vanguard. Retrieved 16 July 2020.should settle the issue. As an encyclopedia, we have national and language systemic bias; the Nigerian media obviously consider this to be a 'national tragedy.' But it won't satisfy the die hards. We will have to agree to disagree, and let the process play out. She should be in WP:ITN as a recent death, but we have this wasteful sideshow going on. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 12:19, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I've posted it In the News candidates so there is some urgency in getting this resolved. "You don't need a weatherman to see which way the wind blows" 7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:57, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy Keep When I declined the WP:G4 tag placed on the article by User:Amkgp, as can be seen here. I was aware that a lot has changed since the last AfD, because she now has a substantive coverage in even more reliable sources, thus passing WP:GNG and WP:BASIC. She also passes WP:ANYBIO per her contribution to the Nigerian Air Force, it's really a pity that she had to die so early. I'll advise Amkgp to slow down on the CSD tagging and take the time to read WP:SPEEDY thoroughly. Best, —Nnadigoodluck🇳🇬 16:50, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep That the subject here so clearly and overwhelming meets GNG makes me think that the some here believe that SNGs supersede GNG. They do not. SNGs allow for a subject that otherwise cannot meet GNG to still be considered notable. Further WP:ONEEVENT cannot be applied where there is wide coverage for two distinct events. GreatCaesarsGhost 18:53, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep passes WP:GNG/WP:ANYBIO, per all the above comments. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 19:50, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Subject fails WP:1E which is a generally recognized exception to ANYBIO. Their only real claim to notability is being the first female combat helicopter pilot in Nigeria. All other cited accomplishments are fairly run of the mill for a military pilot. Their death, while tragic, is not a notable event in itself, with all coverage directly relating to her 1E claim to fame. Sorry, but that's not enough to ring the WP:N bell. I am a little disturbed at the plethora of supports above which seem to be setting a very low bar for notability. -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:34, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's quite mistaken. WP:1E does not apply because the subject is known for at least three things:
  1. Her status as the first female combat helicopter pilot in Nigeria
  2. Her prowess in fighting against Boko Haram
  3. Her recent death at an early age in a freak accident
Even if there was just one event, WP:1E would not imply deletion because it says clearly that "If the event is highly significant, and the individual's role within it is a large one, a separate article is generally appropriate." The subject's role in these occurrences is a large one and so the article is appropriate. Q.E.D.
Andrew🐉(talk) 23:15, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing in her combat record is especially notable. People die young from accidents all the time. All of the coverage stems from her status as the first female combat helicopter pilot in Nigeria. Sorry, but this article is a giant flashing neon sign that keeps blinking "1E"... -Ad Orientem (talk) 23:34, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I am struggling to stay silent on the subject but i just couldn't, like i stated before having theoritical knowledge of a subject will only birth suppositious comments, Operation GAMA AIKI in which she was notable for within the army deserves a stand alone article per WP:SIGCOV. But i guess you don't really konw what it takes to fight insurgency in Nigeria, you don't know what NTA Channels 10 looks like so you won't understand that the subject is being talked about on all-things Nigeria platforms, it's really exhausting defending the subject Wikipedia:WikiProject Nigeria really need active editors--Brain7days (talk) 00:08, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Brain7days. I have no familiarity with GAMA AIKI so I'm not going to discuss that. But participation in a military operation, even a highly notable one, does not ipso facto confer notability on a person. GNG/BASIC do not lay out any applicable criteria beyond SIGCOV, for which we have a single event. Other possible notability conferring criteria are covered in WP:NSOLDIER. AFAIK the subject of this AfD does not meet any of those criteria. If she does, then that would force me to reconsider my 'Delete.' -Ad Orientem (talk) 00:30, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Apply WP:IGNORE then. Fighter_pilot#Female_fighter_pilots is a list of related subjects too, Thanks.Brain7days (talk) 00:54, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
IAR is always an available fallback. I've employed it a few times myself where I thought that the subject of an article just fell through the cracks in our notability guidelines but that commonsense would suggest the article be kept. Alas I'm not persuaded in this case. I just don't see a strong argument for the subject's long term significance. Female military pilots are fairly common place today. It may be a novelty in Nigeria but that isn't enough for me. I stand by my 'Delete.' -Ad Orientem (talk) 02:07, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I am glad you finally acknowledge what the discussion is all about, it is not a big deal to you and everyone else because they are already on that list, and if a country like Nigeria waited 55 years to achieve then such individual deserves decoration not from you though but from me and everyone who identifies with the green white green flag. Thanks to Nnadigoodluck for including her on the list already. On that note what do you think of Madeline Swegle does she deserve a stand alone article, i suggest not going by your perception--Brain7days (talk) 05:59, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You are correct. If we are going to start keeping articles about everybody who is the first (fill in your favorite special group) then we need to amend our notability guidelines. I have tagged the page until I have a chance to do some deep digging. But if I don't find anything more I will likely be sending it to AfD. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:06, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Being an outstanding helicopter pilot is not an event; it's a status, an occupation, a continuous thing. We have numerous articles about people who are notable for just one occupation – footballers, singers, scientists, &c. Even if we had an event it still wouldn't be an argument for deletion because the point of 1E is that you write an article about the event and so you still have an article. So, AE's case rests on a complete misunderstanding and misrepresentation of WP:1E. Essentially it's WP:IDONTLIKEIT with a veneer of flawed Wikilawyering. Andrew🐉(talk) 08:22, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Weak delete Our watchword is notability, she appears to have received a fair amount of notice, but it all seems to be about her death. As such yes it does fail "notable for one event", if that is not the case find some sources about her before she died.Slatersteven (talk) 10:31, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep/Wait as soon as Nigeria awards her some medal posthumously she'll qualify for WP:NSOLDIER and we'll have to do this all over again. Hell, the article might even get posted to TFA. If she had been a WWI Australian fighter pilot we'd not even be having this discussion. --LaserLegs (talk) 10:32, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Lay of accusations of racism, and no she would not get notable unless she is awarded their highest decoration. And see wp:crystal.Slatersteven (talk) 10:45, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I had my reservations in the first AFD but with the number of multiple reliable sources the subject has now; it clearly passes GNG and deserve inclusion. Unfortunately the going back and forth in this AFD won’t be the case if she was American. Kaizenify (talk) 12:36, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Kaizenify, careful now, you are beginning to indirectly insinuate racism. Celestina007 (talk) 16:11, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Although I still maintain the article should be kept due to the coverage, which clearly meets WP:SIGCOV, I think we should steer away from the "outstanding helicopter pilot" claims. She was a junior officer with no decorations. Her notability and coverage is down to her status as Nigeria's first female combat helicopter pilot. Everyone is always claimed to be the greatest whatever after their death; that's just human nature. She was a combat helicopter pilot. She did her job well by all accounts. So do countless other service personnel. Most of them don't have articles. Many people die prematurely in tragic accidents. Most of them don't have articles. Let's just stick to the actual reasons for her notability and not get carried away with the "she was the greatest helicopter pilot ever" rubbish. It doesn't help anyone's cause. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:48, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment — I hope the canvassing & sockpuppetry that has riddled this AFD would be taken into account by the closing admin. Celestina007 (talk) 17:09, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment − Admins are trusted users and they know better, the blocked sock has no connection with the article except an evidence of such suffice,the sock's decision was based on their own premise and should not be used to interpret the consensus. In addition any percieved canvassing should be provided with receipts.--Brain7days (talk) 08:06, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment And I hope they take the bludgeoning into account. Trillfendi (talk) 14:41, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Maybe doubtful before her death but since then, the huge media coverage in the Nigerian media seems to confirm her notability. No one would question the notability of someone whose death would have been similarly covered by the media in any Western country. --DonCamillo (talk) 11:54, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Really, care to give an example of somoene only notable for being dead?Slatersteven (talk) 12:08, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Read again, I have not said that she is notable for being dead, but that the media coverage on the occasion of her death leaves no doubt regarding her notability. --DonCamillo (talk) 12:23, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Quite. Having an obituary doesn't mean you're suddenly notable for being dead. It just confirms that you were notable when you were alive. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:24, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Not really, deaths are reported all the time, we do not have articles on them. When we do its because there was an impact beyond them being dead. So I ask again can we see some examples of this apparent double standard?Slatersteven (talk) 12:34, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There really is a big difference between a simple two-line report of a death and an obituary. Brief coverage of death doesn't equal notability, but wide publication of obituaries certainly does. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:42, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
A claim has been made back it up. "No one would question the notability of someone whose death would have been similarly covered by the media in any Western country" so give an example of this.Slatersteven (talk) 12:45, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
She had already achieved some kind of notability before her death (there are media articles about her in 2019, where she is mentioned as the "first female combatant helicopter pilot in the history of the Service"), and the huge coverage of her life and death on the occasion of her death confirms this notability. She's not famous because of her death, but because she is the first female combatant in the history of the Nigerian airforce *and* died a tragic death, in the context of a war against terrorist groups, during which she saw action - which makes her kind of a national hero right now in Nigeria, as the media coverage shows very clearly. Not sure about what is hard to understand here.
Regarding the double standard, look for yourself: Category:Helicopter pilots. --DonCamillo (talk) 12:52, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
As I do not see the double standard its down to you to demonstrate it, not me.Slatersteven (talk) 13:04, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Not for anyone to do your homework, sorry. Good luck. --DonCamillo (talk) 13:09, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Slatersteven: What DonCamillo means, of course, is "I will provide diffs to back up my assertion or you are entitled to query whether it's true" Cheers! ——Serial 13:17, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Do I really want to waste my time trying to convince people who apparently don't think there are double standards on Wikipedia (at least I had a good laugh)? I'm not sure. --DonCamillo (talk) 13:38, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The dearth of experience backing your position is duly noted. ——Serial 14:00, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Afd's are based on the strength of argument, not the number of votes. If your argument is not backed by evidence its not exactly very strong.Slatersteven (talk) 13:40, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Why are you saying that this lacks "experience" or "evidence"? I'm just stating basic facts: she's famous in Nigeria, she's a "first", her obits were on the frontpage of Nigerian media for days, this has been of the main topics of discussion all over Nigeria since her death (this is not opinion but fact with reliable sources). For many people here, these facts mean this article should not be deleted, can't you at least respect that? It is also a fact that there is a double standard and a bias against topics related to the global South (I'm not saying everyone here is biased or no one has the right to say this article should be deleted: I'm saying this double standard and this bias are a real thing). It's obvious for anyone who has experience on any of the large Wikipedias. No one would dare to challenge the notability of someone whose obit was on the frontpage of the New York Times (I've checked all the obits showing on the dedicated page of the NYT right now: 7 articles - without any AfD -, 1 without an article yet; is that enough for you?). For some reason if the obit is on the front page of the Daily Trust (one of the major newspapers in Nigeria) and basically one of the biggest news for days in a 200-million people country, it's fine to challenge. I think that's wrong and that's not the way we should go if we want to improve the way global South-related topics are treated on Wikimedia projects. --DonCamillo (talk) 15:49, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I did not say you lacked experience. So out of 7 obits one does not even have an article, so your bias is that we do not even waste our time on such people if they are "from the north". As to the rest who are they?Slatersteven (talk) 16:01, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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