Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Taijian

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Eunuch#China. Consensus about this redirect of the term, no consensus about whether we should have a (differently titled) article about the "traitor" meaning. Sandstein 20:07, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Taijian

Taijian (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Unreferenced, appears to be a blatant WP:POV fork. The term does exist in Mandarin, perhaps more on the Internet than in real life, and has in fact been used by both Pan-Blue and Pan-Green camps to attack each other. This article deals with only the (deep) Pan-Green perspective, and seems to be more interested in pushing this perspective than discussing this term. There are already several places for explaining such perspectives such as Taiwanese nationalism and Taiwanese identity. Also notice that there is no zh.wiki counterpart for this term. At any rate, Taijian should direct to eunuch, its primary use in English. Timmyshin (talk) 05:05, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Taiwan-related deletion discussions. MT TrainTalk 12:14, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect to either Taiwan#National_identity or Taiwanese_identity#Taiwanese_opinion (which one is more appropriate). Just to take note that Taijian (as the disambug in the page show) doesn't mean eunuch but Taiwan traitors. In chinese pinyin, it is (tai1) （台）and not (tai4) （太). So there is no grounds for Taijian should direct to eunuch, which will be wrong. I feel that a merge of content can just be copied and pasted to the correct site as not much attribution purpose, then the page can be redirected to the community determined correct site. So redirect. Just to address POV, the article is neutral IMO and since it is used by Pan-Blue and Pan-Green camps which are the main opposition / rulling party in Taiwan, there can be no doubt a search in Chinese newspaper to give reliable sources where GNG can be met. But it doesn't warrant an article still. --Quek157 (talk) 15:47, 8 May 2018 (UTC) updated --Quek157 (talk) 18:38, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I feel that the article is just unsourced, if with sources it will be better. However, I don't have the time to source for it, but clearly this "With the beginning of democratic elections, Taiwanese nationalists now view Taiwanese citizens who collaborated with a hostile foreign power, especially the People's Republic of China, as Taijian. At the same time Chinese nationalists view these so called Taiwanese nationalists as hanjian for collaborating with a hostile foreign power such as Japan." with source can be merged with Taiwanese_identity#Taiwanese_opinion via copy paste with citation needed, plus "After the end of Japanese rule on Taiwan, many members of the Republic of China administration arrived on Taiwan with fresh images of Japanese atrocities on mainland China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. As a result, anti-Japanese sentiment caused many to view the native Taiwanese who had been brought up and educated under the Japanese system as politically untrustworthy traitors. At the same time, some Taiwanese viewed the Japanese Empire favorably and held anti-Chinese sentiment, thinking the Chinese backwards and corrupt. As a result, many Taiwanese discriminate Chinese and their descendants. After the February 28 Incident in 1947 in which a nativist rebellion was suppressed, Taiwanese who collaborated with Chiang Kai-shek's Kuomintang party were commonly considered[by whom?] as Taijian." can be linked (if cited) to Taiwan#National_identity --Quek157 (talk) 18:38, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
found the Chinese wiki zh page on this [1] Quek157 (talk) 15:57, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Read through the Afd, proposer asked for transwiki to dictionary, 1 vote for transwiki, 2 opposes but without any good reasons in term of notability, 1st 毫無營養的條目，刪 = totally non-edifying, delete ; 2nd 令人反感。= cause people to be disgusted, then the voter for transwiki commented "那漢奸這條目對你們而言，難道能算得上營養嗎？請先把個人的喜好放下，那名詞是台灣新聞裡慣用的名詞，確定能有一定的關注度。在維基百科內，負面性的條目不少，只有詞意解釋的，移動到維基辭典，何錯之有" - then hanjian to both is edifying, please put down individual likes, that term is regularly used in chinese news, verifibility and notablity must be there, it should be focused at. At wikipedia, negative articles are much, but those which are just dictionary should be transwikied, but this is not the only one, have more. (END OF TRANSLATION). This ended in close. This is in 2010. I will say this Afd (no malice to the mod) is too brief, no GNG argument, just delete. If by current day standards, it will be relisted and close as keep / transwiki. I will say notability are different for each wiki, English wiki we uses WP:GNG, I feel that if I search Taiwan news, there will be more than a few significant, independent coverage of the article. I cannot agree with Afd there equal to here especially with such narrowly discussed Afds. --Quek157 (talk) 18:38, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Zanhe: can you please read the page and above my comments before suggesting such a move. This is 台奸 not 太监. --Quek157 (talk) 17:07, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That's irrelevant as there's no difference in English (unless you add the tone marks). The usage for eunuch trumps all else. -Zanhe (talk) 17:14, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
My comment, if merged, the original page will be merged without a redirect. Page movers should know. I don't think we need a taijian redirect to eunuch page (such a page serves no meaning). I oppose such merges. I feel that my comments have been clear enough. So I will revise to just a comment. I will feel the best way to handle this is to move those citable materials to the relevant pages (with the context of taiwan traitor - explaned above), then the page to be deleted. Since no clear opinion exists, this is the only view I can give to this Afd. To make it crystal clear, I am neither from Taiwan (ROC - for extra clear) or China, supports the One China consensus (1992) but an ethic Chinese with native English, Chinese language writing and reading skills. This will be my take on this Afd and no more --Quek157 (talk) 18:38, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Just to add, what is this Afd for, if merger or redirect, why to a totally different in meaning topic. If we are talking about the article to be deleted, then it must be evaluated based on notablity, suitablity and etc and all the policies are in. If we are talking about POV issues, why can't someone write it to be neutral. This topic, based on my assessment, is notable as argued above, but I think the content can be added to exsting pages, therefore, these are my proposals. If not might as well keep the article with citation needed. --Quek157 (talk) 18:46, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
One more, I know this is a very politically sensitive topic, so I am very careful in my commenting. --Quek157 (talk) 18:47, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • (edit conflict) Your personal background does not really matter, only the quality of your argument does. My vote for redirect to eunuch is based on the most common usage in English sources for "taijian" according to Google books results. Merging the content (if sourced) into hanjian is fine, but that does not change the primary usage of the term "taijian". -Zanhe (talk) 18:49, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • exactly, taijian --> eunuch. But do we need such a redirect based on hanyu pingyin or not? I don't think so. I mentioned my background (and in fact my ancestors are from two different sides of the straits (the closest possible where artillery shells can reach each other) - can guess where already?) just to make sure I disclose my potential COI in this discussion as well as I am really neutral here. I agree with merging with hanjian (as Taiwan is Han anyway, based on One China Consensus)), but I don't think there is a need to merge given the little contribution history. Someone can just copy and paste. Since there is nothing to delete ultimately and even if you want taijian -->eunuch, given that you and the proposers are page movers, we can take this to the talk page and see which to merge, then why not then just copy and paste the relevant parts, then don't even redirect, just leave the page blank and marked as PROD. Why need to take this issue to Afd? Off topic :And one more thing that I hate the most is that when we are discussing the Afd, the author of the page is always not here for all the Afd I am in, and often this is due to the fact that they are newcomers and create and run (not for this case though) even if we do notify them, so I thank all the NPPs (which are you all). --Quek157 (talk) 19:00, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • 1) As Zanhe mentioned your ancestry doesn't matter, and nobody is questioning your COI or neutrality.
2) As Zanhe has shown, the primary use for "Taijian" in English is the term for Eunuch. I should probably point out that this term means "Grand Guardian" and was used in the official government bureaucracy from at least the 11th century to the 20th century. This topic thus deserves a standalone article (just like Grand Commandant, Grand Preceptor etc.) and there are several reference books like A Dictionary of Official Titles in Imperial China that can support it. But we don't have an article yet, so redirecting to the western equivalent Eunuch makes the most sense. The point here is this usage trumps that of "Taiwanese traitor".
3) I don't think you are opposed to redirecting/merging this article. I agree that the zh.wiki AFD arguments look unconvincing, but I share their general concern that such terms are best suited for the Wiktionary. The term does exist in Taiwan, but so do 賣台賊 (Taiwanese traitor), 舔共伢 (Communist ass-kisser), 共匪 (Communist bandit), 皇民 (Subject of the Emperor), 滯台難民 (Refugee remaining in Taiwan), 台巴子 (Uncouth Taiwanese), 高級外省人 (Elegant Mainlander), and also Internet slangs such as 9.2, 覺青, 吱吱, 綠蛆, etc which I can't translate. The list could be endless. These terms simply demonstrate a political or identity divide in Taiwan as a result of Taiwan's unusual political situation, and are not each inherently encyclopedic. Another option is to create an article List of political insults in Taiwan, but sources are required. Timmyshin (talk) 20:07, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: 1. Thanks 2. I know that 隋朝， 唐朝， 明朝， 宋朝 ( Sui dynasty ,Tang dynasty, Ming dynasty, Song dynasty) all have the kind of / sort of Grand Guardian . I also support a full article on 太监 is supportable as it noted. 3. I don't support such list as is just WP:LISTCRUFT. I am clearly not opposing any merger, but I am thinking of whether "Taiwan traitor" can have a topic on it's own. The subject have it's notablity that is what I wanted to say initially as your initial rationale is not what I am convinced of. The title is really sound weird to start of with. Why not we don't merge and redirect, which will cause a lot of problems as source text doesn't match the redirected text / merge. But just to move the page to "Taiwan traitor" + put it with citation needed + Afd it if needed, but do it with your page mover rights (I am not sure if both of you Zanhe / you) WITHOUT leaving a redirect. That will solve this problem ASAP. --Quek157 (talk) 20:52, 8 May 2018 (UTC) In addition, I am real tempted to vote as WP:IAR delete without prejudice for recreation --Quek157 (talk) 20:53, 8 May 2018 (UTC) Just to add, the tag is wrong is not secondary sources, it is WP:OR balantly. --Quek157 (talk) 22:16, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Timmyshin and Zanhe:, since this is for sometime and for non Chinese this is way too complicated, I will try to summarize the key points from this long discussion, do correct me if this is wrong:

  1. The main use of taijian is Eunuch#China (tai "fouth" sound), an alternative can be "Taiwan Traitor" ("first" sound) sound - in hanyupinyin.
  2. No objection for a redirect for taijian to the above main use
  3. If properly sourced, no objection to merge to hanjian.


Therefore, my proposal will be like this:

  1. Move this page to a separate page named "Taiwanese Traitor" and then put unsourced, let someone source it and then we then merge accordingly / let it stand
  2. The original page a redirect to Eunuch#China will be there.


Any objections or comments, this will settle this as I don't intent to let this relist--Quek157 (talk) 20:58, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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