Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sovereign Military Order of the Temple of Jerusalem

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

Sovereign Military Order of the Temple of Jerusalem

The result was speedy keep. Nomination withdrawn - PARAKANYAA has made significant improvements. D1551D3N7 (talk) (non-admin closure)‎

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Sovereign Military Order of the Temple of Jerusalem (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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Lack of RS and notability.

This is a fantasist order that is trying to piggyback off of the original Knights Templar to make it seem like the organization is well known but upon closer inspection all the sources are unreliable or primary sources - from the org itself. Be aware that the page is primarily about the organization supposedly founded in 1962, a lot of the history prior to that on the page can be disregarded and is better covered on other pages.

Websites related to the group are: smotj.org, osmth.org, osmtj.global

The academia.edu papers are published there by "Daniel J Clausen" and don't seem to be peer reviewed or anything. Daniel J Clausen is himself part of the organization of course. D1551D3N7 (talk) 20:41, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. While this needs to be completely rewritten I have run into sigcov of this group several times while looking into related groups - from looking at that, I remember having the feeling this page was highly misleading. Additionally a surface level search pulls up a lot of hits from reliable sources. They might be larpers, but they are notable.
IIRC, they are covered in significant detail in The Order of the Solar Temple: The Temple of Death, with several pages running down their history (they were like three degrees removed from the solar temple so it was context) PARAKANYAA (talk) 05:53, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW, if it is kept I will rewrite it. I can't promise soon but I plan to make all the articles related to the Order of the Solar Temple Not Terrible and this was one of the organizations in the Neo-templarism larp mileau at the time. PARAKANYAA (talk) 06:02, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A rewrite would be appreciated if the page was kept but in it's current state it's entirely self-referential and promotional. By this I mean the content is all about internal schisms and different people having positions in the org and the tenuous links to the orgs before it, theres nothing about the actual activities of the group or why its notable. Perhaps I'm guilty of Wikipedia:Overzealous_deletion but I think the current article is entirely biased and a new draft through the page creation process would be preferable. I think a big reason this page slipped through the cracks is it was created in 2005.
The page Joseph Di Mambro says its a white supremacist group which is a far cry from it's own claims about being a charity. Neo-Templarism is also a page that could be improvedParakanyaa D1551D3N7 (talk) 11:18, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't like pages being deleted if they're notable. I will try to at least get rid of all the self-promo stuff and put something else there in the next few days.
Yeah they are far more unsavory than this page presents. Or at least were.
Neo-Templarism used to be an extremely misleading redirect and now it's a bad start class article. This topic is hard. PARAKANYAA (talk) 11:22, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep as according to the comments and evidence by Parakanyaa the subject is notable but needs a drastic rewrite. If that does not happen I suggest it is stubbed to a paragraph or so, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 19:18, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I have now blown it up and started over with reliable sources. There is a lot more information in these sources (particularly in the NRM encyclopedia) but yknow, time. I still vote keep, at least for now, but in the future I may elect to merge this into neo-Templarism anyway because the whole thing is with these kinds of groups is there's 1000 schisms with near identical names and it may in fact be more confusing to cover this as an article on this specific organization when it schism-ed into 40 other groups. However there is some reliable coverage on its own activities outside of its history so maybe not - but in any case I've addressed the problems that lead to the AfD and the decision to merge can be taken editorially later.
It's still probably very confusing, however the sources explicitly note how confusing the whole thing is, so oh well. PARAKANYAA (talk) 04:32, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Changing vote to merge to neo-Templarism at least for now. While they do fulfill the GNG, most of what I can find on them is neo-Templarism generally and there are so many schisms and whatnot that they're better covered as part of the group of organizations anyway. There is a non-zero chance that it could be split out again in the future but no guarantee. This is better in the short term IMO. PARAKANYAA (talk) 07:59, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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