Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rühm

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge and redirect (non-admin closure) Coastside (talk) 20:40, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Rühm

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This is a foreign word, not a loan word. At best it should be a redirect (R from alternative language) to the English word "platoon". Coastside (talk) 06:03, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I am also nominating the following related articles for deletion as they are all Estonian words for military terms and are not loan words in English.

Coastside (talk) 06:57, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Estonia-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 07:19, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 07:19, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Language-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz (talk) 13:25, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Soft delete by redirecting to corresponding English terms (and/or Estonian Land Forces#Organization). No need for articles on 'division' etc. by language, differences between American division, German division, Estonian division etc. can be discussed in a single article. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:08, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments copied from discussion at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Malev_(military_unit) (consolidating discussion): Coastside (talk) 15:26, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per my comment at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Salk. This should be a bulk nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:15, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. The deletion rationale is nonsensical: what exactly is a "foreign word"? More importantly, per WP:MILUNIT, national "battalion-level or equivalent" units are notable, and an Estonian malev is larger than a battalion. Jpatokal (talk) 11:27, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, that's individual, named units (e.g. 1st Infantry Battalion), not generic definitions of units. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:30, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments copied from discussion at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Salk (consolidating discussion): Coastside (talk) 15:31, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. There are plenty of foreign loanwords in English, so the above rationale is confusing. That said, I am unsure if there is sufficient rationale for this and Lahingpaar, Brigaad, Diviis, Pataljon, Jagu, Rühm, Kompanii and such to exist separately on English Wikipedia. We don't need entries for 'Division in Estionian' - it probably should be merged to division. But this should be a bulk nom with all of those Estonian terms analyzed side by side (nominating just one or two - Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Malev (military unit) - terms - will be confusing). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:09, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Merge into single article. The information in these articles is useful and well-sourced, but probably better off in a single article about Estonian military divisions. Jpatokal (talk) 11:31, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Merge and redirect to Estonian Land Forces and/or to appropriate English-language equivalent (e.g. Battalion, Platoon). Keep Malev (military unit), which does seem peculiar to Estonia. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:36, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Merge into a single article; Salk should redirect to Jonas Salk, whose fame is worldwide. bd2412 T 17:11, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Merge and redirect to Estonian Land Forces#Organization, with the definite exception of Salk, which should redirect to Jonas Salk, and the possible exception of Malev (military unit). I'm undecided as to whether the latter merits a separate article. Clarityfiend (talk) 19:28, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

To answer the question "what exactly is a foreign word" (as asked by @Jpatokal:), in the context of the English Wikipedia it is a non-Enlgish word. A foreign word is discussed in the manual of style at Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Foreign_words. In this context, I mean a foreign term as described at Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Text_formatting#Foreign_terms. Guidance about using foreign words sparingly can be found at Wikipedia:Writing_better_articles#Use_other_languages_sparingly. The specific guidance on using foreign words for article titles (which is what this AFD is about) can be found at Wikipedia:Article_titles#Use_English. More detailed information can be found at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English). Regarding the fact that there are loan words with articles in English, I do understand that, but I am specifically arguing that these are not loan words as they are not commonly used in English. On the contrary they are foreign words and as such should not have articles with those titles in the English Wikipedia.Coastside (talk) 15:53, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If there is consensus, I recognize the argument that this content is worth keeping in an article on the Estonian military, and I would support that. If that is how this gets resolved, these article titles should redirect to that article with {{R from alternative language}}. In my opinion that includes Malev (military unit), which is still a foreign term vs. a loan word. As additional guidance, entries in such an article should use English with foreign words secondarily. For example: instead of Kompanii (English: company) such an article should use something like: Estonian military company (Estonian: Kompanii). Coastside (talk) 16:03, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Non-English words", whatever that means, are not a valid reason for deletion: see WP:DEL-REASON for the canonical list. You will need to base your argument on lack of Wikipedia:Notability or perhaps Wikipedia:Overcategorization. Jpatokal (talk) 01:21, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding what I mean by "non-English words", I provided all the relevant policy links above and no one else seems confused. I can't clarify for you any better than that. Regarding the "canonical" list of "valid" reasons for deletion I would point out that the policy says "Reasons for deletion include, but are not limited to...", so be careful about wikilawyering. Regardless, I understand your position to be that you don't think these articles should be deleted and that you think it was inappropriate that I proposed they be deleted. Coastside (talk) 02:35, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Conclusion

Based on the constructive suggestions above (thank you), I think the right approach is to merge these articles into Estonian Land Forces#Organization with redirects (from alternative language) to the merged article, and change of primary topic for Salk to Jonas Salk. I'll leave this discussion open a bit longer for additional comments, and then barring objection I'll close the AFD and add {{merge to}} for those articles with reference to this discussion. Coastside (talk) 02:35, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.