Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Poppy unreleased discography
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Spartaz Humbug! 17:17, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
Poppy unreleased discography
- Poppy unreleased discography (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Total lack of notability for this list of unreleased tracks by recent music star. Fram (talk) 19:59, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
- How does it lack notability? The Beatles bootleg recordings lists unreleased tracks, and so does List of songs recorded by the Beatles. This seems like more of a preference to you, unless you have a plethora of Wikipedia guidelines the article doesn't abide by. A merge would've also been a decent suggestion if you're that unsatisfied by the article. Hypothetically, if this article were to be deleted, how about transferring the info to the Poppy discography. -- AlexanderHovanec (talk) 20:04, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
- Hm, well Fram seems to want the page removed pretty badly, but he's not replying or countering the arguments. Don't get me wrong, I totally respect his feelings on the matter. But a little participation and feedback'd be nice! Do you have anything else to offer on the matter aside from "This isn't notable. End of discussion."? Would merging be of interest? -- AlexanderHovanec (talk) 23:41, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
- Why would merging a sprawling list of trivia be of interest? Not everything someone notable has ever done is also of interest. We don't include lists of interviews, TV appearances, ... for every notable artist either, even though these are also part of their job and of interest to die-hard fans. That's why fan fora exist, fan websites, things like wikia, ... Fram (talk) 07:39, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Hm, well Fram seems to want the page removed pretty badly, but he's not replying or countering the arguments. Don't get me wrong, I totally respect his feelings on the matter. But a little participation and feedback'd be nice! Do you have anything else to offer on the matter aside from "This isn't notable. End of discussion."? Would merging be of interest? -- AlexanderHovanec (talk) 23:41, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
- Delete - Comparing one of the most recognizable and influential musical acts of all time (The Beatles) to a pop singer who released one moderately successful album (Poppy), is a bit of a stretch, wouldn't you agree? Similar lists like this exist, as you mentioned, but those are supported by reliable secondary sources, not Soundcloud and Instagram. Perhaps Poppy -- years from now -- will warrant such a list but only when coverage can establish notability.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 01:39, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 03:11, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Albums and songs-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 03:11, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 03:11, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 03:11, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
- Keep, Keep as draft or under construction, or merge to Poppy discography to let the information on the page expand and be corrected (there are presently mistakes in 'original songs'). There are similar pages, so this is consistent with those, as well as the notability of the back-story covered by gathering the unreleased songs on this page. The "present" Poppy has developed and evolved from a storyline presented in her YouTube presence, while this page covers Poppy from her time as "That Poppy", without the storyline. This is a notable distinction, and possibly unique in singer-public-persona-development. Hence its notability. As for the singer's notability, her second major studio album will be released soon, and many people who follow the Poppy-project may be correct in calling her both the Queen of the internet and Queen of the Millennials. This singer's "fame" should expand quickly, so at a minimum let's either keep the page as a draft for a few months or merge to the discography. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:00, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
- "Other stuff exists" is not how AfD works, and for e.g. the Beatles there are whole books about there unreleased tracks. The reliable, independent sources about the things in this list seem to be rather thin... "The notability of the back-story" is something which sounds nice but doesn't exist in Wikipedia terms. I can't stop anyone from moving this to draft space, but it seems a waste of time and (human) resources to turn something unsalvageable into a draft which needs reviewing before rejection. Fram (talk) 07:39, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Maybe relevant questions which you or other editors of Wikipedia's music pages can answer. Have there ever been any other unreleased recordings pages written, even counting pages which were then deleted, besides the Beatles page? Without looking I would think that possibly there would be, or have been pages, on the Grateful Dead's, maybe Bob Dylan's, or on many other recording artist's unreleased but existing work. And, again without looking, how are the unreleased, but existing, material for other artist's handled on Wikipedia? Can these songs by That Poppy be listed on the Poppy discography page? Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 17:21, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- "Other stuff exists" is not how AfD works, and for e.g. the Beatles there are whole books about there unreleased tracks. The reliable, independent sources about the things in this list seem to be rather thin... "The notability of the back-story" is something which sounds nice but doesn't exist in Wikipedia terms. I can't stop anyone from moving this to draft space, but it seems a waste of time and (human) resources to turn something unsalvageable into a draft which needs reviewing before rejection. Fram (talk) 07:39, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Yes there are, and in the case of List of unreleased songs recorded by Pink Floyd and List of unreleased songs by Radiohead, the point is that these songs have been discussed in books or articles by independent sources outside the artists' websites or social media. Richard3120 (talk) 17:36, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you. And here's a page of unreleased material of the Beach Boys. The Radiohead page you linked doesn't seem to reference books (but that's on a quick look). There may be more. The uniqueness I mentioned earlier, that the artist in question, Poppy, has taken a different and in itself unique path since many of her earlier recordings were made, does seem a notable occurrence and one which may or may not have already been sourced (I don't usually click on many links I don't know, and "jump out" when a link is taking awhile to load, so I limit my internet research). Again, thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 17:54, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Books, no, but all eight references for the Radiohead article are from established and reputable music magazines – what it shows is that these songs have been discussed by outside sources. Whereas at present, the unreleased Poppy songs haven't been talked about in any reliable sources, just fan sites and various Wikias. To me, they aren't any different from any other budding singer-songwriter uploading their cover version to their YouTube or Soundcloud channel.
- Incidentally, it appears that all these tracks can be freely downloaded from her Soundcloud site, which opens up another debate as to whether a song that can be accessed by anyone and added to an MP3 library is truly "unreleased"... Richard3120 (talk) 18:54, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Interesting. I don't know how Soundcloud works, are the releases there approved by the artist? I was wondering why some of the songs which have been removed elsewhere on youtube are played there. If so, then can the songs be listed on her regular discography page instead of a separate page (which may be a good compromise consensus for this page)? Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 19:06, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- It's up to the owner of the Soundcloud channel to decide whether to make the songs downloadable or not. Richard3120 (talk) 19:16, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Interesting. I don't know how Soundcloud works, are the releases there approved by the artist? I was wondering why some of the songs which have been removed elsewhere on youtube are played there. If so, then can the songs be listed on her regular discography page instead of a separate page (which may be a good compromise consensus for this page)? Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 19:06, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you. And here's a page of unreleased material of the Beach Boys. The Radiohead page you linked doesn't seem to reference books (but that's on a quick look). There may be more. The uniqueness I mentioned earlier, that the artist in question, Poppy, has taken a different and in itself unique path since many of her earlier recordings were made, does seem a notable occurrence and one which may or may not have already been sourced (I don't usually click on many links I don't know, and "jump out" when a link is taking awhile to load, so I limit my internet research). Again, thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 17:54, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Yes there are, and in the case of List of unreleased songs recorded by Pink Floyd and List of unreleased songs by Radiohead, the point is that these songs have been discussed in books or articles by independent sources outside the artists' websites or social media. Richard3120 (talk) 17:36, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Comment: AlexanderHovanec, most of the "original unreleased music" are also cover versions, so it makes no sense to split the songs in this article into two separate lists. Richard3120 (talk) 23:27, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
- Delete - there's barely music released to enough to warrant a split off to a separate discography, let alone a second one that documents only her unreleased material. Unreleased material can sometimes have a place on Wikipedia, but not like this with this sort of new artist with so little content released. Note how any examples listed above have been decade spanning artists (or hugely prolific ones - Beatles released 12 albums in less than a decade.) It's also sourced to social media and soundcloud. To meet Wikipedia's notability requirements, there should be many reliable, third party sources (professional musical critic types) that write detailed articles about her collective unreleased work. If that exists, the article certainly doesn't show it. Delete the article, but any song that can be sourced to a third party reliable source could be added to the article of the respective released music articles (Song A was recorded for the debut album, but was left off.(reference)) or to her respective article in the history section (Song B was released on December 24 as a free download for fans for Christmas.(reference).) Sergecross73 msg me 21:07, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Comment, hehe. Upon the articles creation, I knew it'd be met with these kind of responses. This was as expected, and I completely understand how an article such as this may not make Wikipedia's cut. So is anyone up for a comprimisable "merge"?
- Delete - I am not opposed to this type of information in Wikipedia, but a separate article is not warranted. If any of the unreleased songs have achieved notability on their own terms they can be mentioned at the artist page or her discography page, with sources. DOOMSDAYER520 (Talk|Contribs) 18:39, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- Comment, transferred the info for now. (Merged.) Any other input'd be great. 👌 -- AlexanderHovanec (talk) 02:06, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
- As already stated multiple times, each entry needs to be sourced to comply with the most basic requirements of Wikipedia, or they're going to be removed from there too. Sergecross73 msg me 11:55, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
- @AlexanderHovanec: the only "compromise" that can be made is that you provide sources for the unreleased songs that don't come from Poppy's own social media accounts. Otherwise as Sergecross73 says, they will have to be deleted because they fail WP:V, which is one of Wikipedia's core policies. Richard3120 (talk) 14:02, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.