Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Paragon Cause

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Randykitty (talk) 17:41, 20 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Paragon Cause (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Not notable, fails to meet WP:NMUSIC.   — Jeff G. ツ 08:12, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Bakazaka (talk) 08:23, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ontario-related deletion discussions. Bakazaka (talk) 08:23, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Jbonapar (talk) 13:56, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the discussion. I disagree that this does not meet Music/Band Guidelines. I will update references to help improve this, it is my first major article (Non-medicine releated) and thus I am still learning. This band is getting large in Canada, they have made national charts (which according to Wikipedia guidelines is a criteria). The band is releasing music with Sune Rose Wagner of The Raveonettes, an international music star which in itself is something that should allow this information to stay as this will likely appear on his page. This band has also toured internationally, in Both Canada and the USA.

According to Wikipedia Guidlines, this band, apart from the above, has met the following and I will update referances to reflect this.

1. Has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable, not self-published, and are independent of the musician or ensemble itself

2. Has had a single or album on any country's national music chart.

3. Has released two or more albums on a major record label or on one of the more important indie labels (i.e., an independent label with a history of more than a few years, and with a roster of performers, many of whom are independently notable).

4. Has become one of the most prominent representatives of a notable style or the most prominent of the local scene of a city; note that the subject must still meet all ordinary Wikipedia standards, including verifiability.

5. Has been placed in rotation nationally by a major radio or music television network. - On National CBC Radio.

Jbonapar (talk) 13:56, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• One more piece of information that was added, their music appears on international radio stations associated with Corus Radio, a collection of Major Radio Stations in Canada. The band does music for The Nighttime Podcast, which has a show on this network. ^[1]Jbonapar (talk) 15:13, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. Regarding the claims above that they meet the NMUSIC criteria, note that:
  (1) the references here are not reliable sources for the purposes of getting the band over NMUSIC #1, but are almost entirely blogs and podcasts and social networking posts;
  (2) earshot is not a notability-making record chart for the purposes of NMUSIC #2, a status which only attaches to IFPI-certified charts on the order of Billboard and not just to any record chart that exists;
  (3) they have not released two albums on a major record label for the purposes of NMUSIC #5: they released one album independently, and then reissued an expanded version of the same album once they signed to a minor record label;
  (4) passage of NMUSIC #7 is not being demonstrated by the substance or sourcing on offer here; it's a criterion that any artist who exists at all can simply claim to pass it if all they have to do is say they pass it, so it requires a much high burden of sourcing and substance to actually pass than you've shown, and is not on the table just because you say it is; and
  (5) getting into the Searchlight competition is not the same thing as getting placed into rotation on CBC Music. If you want to show rotation for the purposes of NMUSIC #11, what you need to show is that Raina, Tom, Rich, Odario and/or Angeline actually played Paragon Cause in the regular daily playlist multiple times, not just that the song was a Searchlight entry — and even then, the only surefire way that actually exists to demonstrate that the song had been played enough to be considered "in rotation", and not just "played once or twice", is to show that the song charted in the CBC Music Top 20. Fact of the matter is, even most actual Searchlight winners don't actually have Wikipedia articles yet — only one actually does, and even she didn't get it because Searchlight per se, but because she did other notability-building stuff after Searchlight. So merely being a Searchlight entrant is not a notability clincher, when even winning Searchlight isn't enough.
  So no, neither the substance nor the sourcing here are cutting it yet. Bearcat (talk) 19:27, 15 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The band's music is played on The Night Time Podcast, which has 200,000 downloads a month. It is also on Global radio stations (National) through Corus Radio. As Wikipedia mentioned for music, they released one album on a European Indie Label that has been around longer than "a few years." Many bands will release an indie album then follow up with a major, re-mixed/re-mastered version on a label (See the Suuns first EP and their first album). Comeherefloyd is noted as one of the top100 music review sites in North America, they were featured on that site. Music blogs, unpaid ones Like Comeherefloyd, Spill Magazine, New Noise Magazine should be considered quality sites as they are not for pay and in todays digital music world, they are one of the primary methods in which artist become notable. I agree with the CBC Searchlight, but the whole is the sum of its parts. I do respectfully disagree with the notion it should be deleted. Also, as mentioned, the band is releasing an album with Sune Rose Wagner, an international music star, who has recorded/written a large number of albums with multiple accolades including doing the soundtrack for an oscar nominated film, Netflix series and of course, the Raveonettes. This also increases the notability. Of course, this is all my opinion and like everything in art, there is alot of objectiveness. But, I disagree that if someone doesnt have The NEw York times or a major newspaper writting about them, they not considered notable. As mentioned early, the band has been featured, in regular rotation on multiple collage radio stations in Canada, the US and Europe. Jbonapar (talk) 22:49, 17 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Podcasts do nothing to support notability, not even if they get broadcast on commercial radio stations as radio shows. Getting into rotation on multiple college radio stations counts for nothing toward our notability criteria — our notability criteria require getting into rotation a national radio network before radio airplay becomes notability. (And again, in Canada that means CBC Music or nothing.)
We have a substantial list of reasons why blogs and other user-generated sources do not constitute valid support for notability — for one thing, people who don't actually have any real media coverage regularly try to sneak around our rules by self-publishing their own "sources" about themselves to blogs and press release distribution platforms so that the content is technically citing "references", which is precisely why we test for whether a reference is a reliable media outlet or not before counting it as a notability-supporting source. And no, disallowing blogs does not make it difficult for a band to clear our notability bar, either — because there are lots of perfectly reliable sources out there that write about bands who haven't exactly gotten into The New York Times yet: Exclaim, BeatRoute, Now, The Georgia Straight, Cult MTL, Voir, Rolling Stone, Paste, Noisey, Pitchfork, and on and on.
An album has to already be released before it counts toward the number of albums criterion, so the fact that they're working on one doesn't count for anything — and notability is not inherited, so who they're working on it with is also not an inclusion freebie that exempts them from still having to be sourced properly. The notability test is not what the article says, it's how well the article references what it says — no matter what a band claims about itself, they're still not notable until those claims have translated into the band receiving coverage from reliable sources. Bearcat (talk) 05:13, 20 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete since subject fails WP:NBAND. -The Gnome (talk) 12:27, 20 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.