Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/P. K. Subban (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. MBisanz ^talk 05:22, 21 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

P. K. Subban

This is an interesting case. This article was taken to AfD in October 2007 when Subban was only a junior hockey player and second round draft pick. Typically, we at the hockey project have limited notability of junior players to first round draft picks, and/or those who have won a major award. At the time Subban had not, and his article was recreated and G4 deleted several times. Since this AfD, Subban has been on two World Junior championship teams with Canada, but otherwise his status has not changed. An admin restored this article some time ago citing WP:IAR, presumably based on his winning gold with Canada. G4 obviously is not applicable anymore, and I think it would be good to answer the question of whether being a World Junior gold medallist crosses the threshold to notability. It is not the highest competition in amateur sport, that would be the Olympics or World Senior Championships, but it is the highest competition in junior (U20) hockey. It is also an event with a ridiculously massive following in Canada, and often these players end up as household names even without playing pro. This is, therefore, a procedural nomination as I can think of several other players who carry similar notability to that of Subban. Reso lute 04:52, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Canada-related deletion discussions. -- fr33k man -s- 04:55, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Hockey-related deletion discussions. -- fr33k man -s- 04:56, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Part of a gold medal winning national sports team seems to pass notability for me fr33k man -s- 04:57, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - fails WP:ATHLETE. Many many individuals compete in international competitions. If they aren't the highest like the guideline indicates, they aren't notable enough. After the next Olympics, when Olympic teams are amateur, we won't have this problem. But right now, it's a grey area. Grsz¹¹ 05:03, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: If this article passes, it opens the door to a bevy of other bio articles. The article fails WP:ATHLETE, as the U20 tournament is not the highest level of amateur hockey. – Nurmsook! ^talk... 05:07, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. I was the one who restored this, IAR as I thought the repeated G4 deletion was a farce (applied to an AfD from a year prior). Sourceable article of a 2nd round draft pick (43rd overall) of an NHL team, with two gold medals at the World Junior Hockey Championships, on the all-star team as a best defenceman of the 2009 tournament, 77k GHits, international news coverage (Canadian examples are: Toronto Star, Sportsnet, Toronto Star, Globe and Mail among many others), also played the NHL pre-season with the Canadiens this year. I personally think it's a no-brainer to keep this. For those citing WP:ATHLETE, I note that this has always been a guideline, and not policy; deletion decisions should be made in account of all of the evidence and not simply whether one meets the two listed criteria. -- Samir 06:17, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Many people seem to be hung up on WP:ATHLETE. To the closing admin, I remind you that this is a guideline and not the be-all and end-all of notability. Many individuals do not meet the criteria at WP:N for a particular category, yet still maintain notability based on other evidence. The news coverage includes many sourced articles about this player (not about playing at the world juniors), so a threshold of notability is clearly met. For those wanting to call for deletion based on policies, WP:V is the policy at play here. Given the multiple reliable sources listed above, I can't see how this merits deletion -- Samir 20:44, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep winning well-known important awards in competition is pretty much what notability for sportspeople is about. Trivial to find sourcing, and apparently joining the NHL - while this is not simple notability, an award winner + drafted to pro-Sports is notability beyond doubt.--Cerejota (talk) 06:39, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I would argue that the U20s are the highest level of amateur hockey in an international sense. The Seniors are not amateur at all with the participation of the NHL etc. If NCAA players are allowed to stand on their own (as evidenced by the overwhelming number of football and basketball players with pages), I'd say these types of players can be allowed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shootmaster 44 (talk • contribs)
Keep per Samir. Not only did the person win Gold and get drafted in the NHL, there are 4 detailed references about Subban to back it all up. - Mgm|^(talk) 12:15, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom. The individual has not competed at the highest level of amateur competition which is the World Championships or the Olympics. Articles on gold medal winning juniors in hockey and in many other sports have been deleted time and again. Keeping this one will open the door to every youth that has ever won an award in an international event. Remember the news coverage has to be non-trivial, so it mentioning that he won a gold medal or that he was drafted does not cut it. There has to be articles about him. Also being drafted in an of itself is not notable as 210 kids are drafted every year, and most of those never play a single NHL game and a number of them never even play a professional game. -Djsasso (talk) 13:45, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep But I do think the article needs improvement in the referencing. A quick search found a ton of stuff that could serve as useful references, so we need to get on this. Cazort (talk) 17:03, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Fails WP:ATHLETE (No, The World Juniors are not the highest). Who was persistently recreating the article back in Dec-Jan?ccwaters (talk) 18:42, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep because too many people are full of Wikipedia's guidelines. This article is well-written and can easily be expanded or just as easily deleted in the future provided player continues to fail WP:ATHLETE. Jc121383 (talk) 18:56, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Article can also be undeleted should they finally meet the criteria. To leave it up thinking he might become notable is a case of WP:CRYSTAL. Delete article content does not disappear after deletion so it can easily be undeleted should he finally meet the guidelines. -Djsasso (talk) 19:02, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - Comment I know that, but information can't be added to it while it's deleted. That creates a lot of work (deleting, undeleting, adding any info missed while it was deleted) for our editors. It also creates this page which takes five minutes away from when I could be editing. Obviously I could go either way though. Jc121383 (talk) 19:09, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - I would think that the world juniors would qualify as "top level of amateur", being as Olympic hockey really can't be seriously considered amateur when you have NHL players competing. Grandmartin11 (talk) 22:45, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment However, NHL players aren't paid to play and amateur players can still make the team for the World Championships and have recently done so. -Djsasso (talk) 02:49, 17 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Living people-related deletion discussions. --Erwin85Bot (talk) 00:00, 17 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete the subject will most likely meet notability criteria in the future, but he isn't there yet and if this is kept because he won gold at a junior level international tournament, it would open the floodgates for hundreds of other ice hockey players who doesn't meet the criteria for athletes but at one time won gold at junior ice hockey tournament. Basically; No exceptions, article can be created when he meets WP:ATHLETE criteria. —Krm500 ^{(Communicate!)} 13:24, 17 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Samir's sources need to be added to the article, as well as others easily found via a Google search that meet the standard of being non-trivial. Failure to pass WP:ATHLETE is debatable — I'd argue that Canadian juniors are the highest amateur level — but immaterial, as he clearly passes WP:N and WP:BIO, which take precedence over the sub-guideline. Mlaffs (talk) 02:50, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Player does not yet meet current standards for notability for hockey players. Time and time again players have been deleted that have played on gold medal junior teams. The subject is not notable per WP:BIO as his only claim to notability is the fact that he is a hockey player so you would have to look at his notability as an athlete. Since he has not played at the highest Amateur level which time and time again precedance has been the Olympics or World Championships, he is not yet notable. Article can be recreated or undeleted when he becomes notable. -Pparazorback (talk) 00:51, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.