Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pál Milkovics

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. The strongest argument came from Lemongirl942 who gave a thorough appraisal of the sources in the article; however even they admitted one or two may be suitable, and their critique doesn't seem to be endorsed sufficiently in depth by anyone else. I have to AGF that the claims that Eastern European sources are not so easily accessible to native English speakers are believable. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 15:48, 17 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Pál Milkovics

Pál Milkovics (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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No indication of significance. Most references are in foreign language. Article is rough poorly translated. Zackmann08 (Talk to me/What I been doing) 22:31, 16 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you very much for your feedback Zackmann08. Please do apologise for my English, yes I am not a native speaker. I am very new here (this is my first article) and trying to be as useful as possible for the WIKIPEDIA community and do appreciate any thoughts on how can I improve, that is why I asked your feedback many times, and only get after the third attempt a very grumpy answer from you (which is not really in compliance with the 'Please do not bite the newcomers' policy). I most definitely will work to correct the mistakes in the article, adding more English references. Please let me express my disagreement with you that the article has been proposed for deletion, I can see that the article is on Wikipedia since more than 8 years, I only have added updates and more relevant information based on what I have collected. In my opinion the article should be in English because it has many references in Czech, Finish, Swedish and Hungarian (beside the English ones), and Milkovics does business internationally. Pikipaki2222 (talk) 08:59, 17 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article contains several indications of significance, and neither cited sources not being in English nor the article being less than perfectly translated are issues that have any bearing on whether this should be deleted, so no part of the nomination statement gives any reason for deletion. I haven't yet done the necessary work to check for notability, which is a possible reason for deletion not identified by the nominator. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 18:50, 19 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Europe-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 10:47, 20 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 10:47, 20 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 10:47, 20 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 02:23, 23 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have further improved the article, de-orphaned, adding more references, language corrections, etc.. Pikipaki2222 (talk) 06:15, 26 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as there's still nothing convincing regardless of improvements, because this still suggests it's only existing PR, also I'm not seeing anything to suggest this could then be acceptable soon. SwisterTwister talk 06:18, 26 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Thank you for your feedback SwisterTwister. I have zero interest in editing this article which is here for more than 8 years, besides updating with new information what I have gathered. The last thing I wanted to do is making PR to anyone, but also I do not want to be the reason to delete the article. As I wrote earlier here, I am new to WIKI and this is my first article, any suggestion that how I can improve, is very much appreciated and I will do the work. Pikipaki2222 (talk) 07:26, 26 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • After SwisterTwister's suggestion of the questionable notability of the person (even though it was not the original reason to nominate this article for deletion), I have checked Wikipedia's guideline on the basic criteria Wikipedia:Notability (people) of notability. The article meets the basic criteria: "have received significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject." All the references are independent from the person, published by journalist, and published on reliable sources (in several different countries). None of the the links, references are publish by the person, none of them a blog, or any social media post done by the person in the article. Pikipaki2222 (talk) 09:51, 26 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Hello, I am a journalist for a broadcasting news website in Germany, and using wikipedia often for background infos. I have used this article many times in the past and the updates are helping our work. 46.189.28.234 (talk) 06:05, 29 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Which news website is it that you work for? That's an important question, because any news source whose journalists rely on Wikipedia can't be regarded as a reliable source. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 19:33, 29 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hello, I work for an online news site specialising for the marketing and media industry. I quiet surprised of your lecture how journalism should work, I am a journalist since 25 years and having an established resume. I do not rely on wikipedia, but if we are looking/searching for information it does come across and we read it, double check it, cross reference it etc.. I did not know that this is not encouraged by wikipedia or its community. I never thought that this community can be as hostile as I see in this and other discussion pages. You are not encouraging any new editor, but rather crush them, if they make mistakes. This could be an interesting story as well. By the way none of the references in the article leads to our site. 85.255.232.225 (talk) 05:41, 30 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 05:53, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Czech wiki: no own article, Mňam TV(actually links to this one)
  • Slovakian wiki: not mentioned
  • Finnish wiki: not mentioned

Fruitmince (talk) 21:49, 11 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Hi Fruitmince, thank you for your feedback. I don't know much of his Hungarian notability, but he was 23 when he left the country as I found out in an interview, I would say (and concerning the fact that 15 years ago the digital footprint couldn't be as as traceable as today) I agree that based on his Hungarian history he would not be notable, but the article I edited not focuses on it at all, his notability was established based on his business track-record, includes 15 references of which each one of them comply with Wikipedia notability requirements. I am working on the Czech article as well, but I feel a little bit discouraged, as this article has been here for so long now with a remark that it is up for deletion, even though I checked all the relevant guidelines and it is in my opinion should not qualify for deltion (as you can see conversations above), I have spent a lot time to improve the article (see its history). Most of the comments are not providing relevant help for improvement as I hoped from this site. Pikipaki2222 (talk) 05:20, 12 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"Started his career as radio host and TV reporter; some of his notable works include documentaries about the forgotten children in ::Chernobyl, the war in Kosovo, and the organ trade in India. In 2003 became editor-in-chief responsible for programme development in RTL ::Group.
In 2007 he co-founded IEM Group, which started as a garage media company and gradually evolved to a multi-national enterprise with ::offices in four countries. Pal's main responsibility was new business development and supervision of production processes. Under his ::management, IEM Group has created various successful TV formats such as documentaries, lifestyle shows and children programmes that ::have been broadcast all over Europe. He also served as adviser for media policies on multi-national level to the European Commission.
Together with Sami Garam launched the Nordic Food Channel in 2011 with main focus on Finland.
Founded Nordic Media Entertainment in 2012, which controls Czech lifestyle TV channels TV Mňam and TV Mňau through its broadcasting ::company CE Media."

Fruitmince (talk) 06:00, 12 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Hi Fruitmince, please advise what is the big problem with it? This text was taken from Wikipedia by the conference I believe, as this is exactly the text I started editing in few weeks ago (check for the previous versions in the history of the article). Pikipaki2222 (talk) 06:17, 12 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am afraid that the opposite is true, the text in question was added to Wikipedia on the 13th of August of 2015, the conference was held on the 26-27th of November in the same year. As well checking the editing history, there was no "copy/paste editing on the page". Beside these facts, I do not recall any Wikipedia guideline of which your raised issue would be a reason to delete the page. Pikipaki2222 (talk) 07:11, 12 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Copyright violationsFruitmince (talk) 07:36, 12 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi Fruitmince, I have searched the webarchives and found this for your information, this is a snapshot of the conference's website on the 13th of September of 2015, as you can see there is no trace of the text you claim was taken from the site, even Milkovics was not even mention on it, however the text already was on Wikipedia. https://web.archive.org/web/20150913072334/http://www.horecacee.com/Speakers/ so it cannot be a copyright violation, unless you accuse the conference's site to taking the text from Wikipedia without actually add the source. Pikipaki2222 (talk) 08:08, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete The subject seems to be notable only for CE media. Business people often make it into news solely because they are associated with the company, many times their coverage is coatracked to news about the company itself. As notability is not inherited, we require coverage where the focus is on the subject. More importantly, this is a WP:BIO1E and usually article about CEOs are redirected to the company. Additionally, I also have concerns about conflict of interest editing going on. Accordingly I would say delete or redirect to the company article per Common_outcomes#Business_people_and_executives. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 02:36, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi Lemongirl942, as I am basically the only contributor of this article I must state: I have nothing to do with the person in the article, never met and never talked to him, your claim is completely unfounded and I will remove the tag from the article and seeking help from admins to prevent you to add it again. For your attention I would like add here references from different countries (all in the article of which probably you failed to read), before even CE Media was established, as well I do add references of which covers the person, not just his business. The references are from 11 different reliable sources (in compliance with Wikipedia guidlines), from 4 different countries (Czech, Belgium, Sweden, Finland).
www.mediaguru.cz/2015/11/barrandov-presune-bezdruzice-muzeme-mit-i-maresovu-show/#.V7NmlmVLGgE
http://www.mediar.cz/k-mnam-a-mnau-pribude-zpravodajsky-kanal-z24/
http://www.digizone.cz/clanky/pal-milkovics-tezke-casy-skoncily-pripravujeme-nove-projekty/
http://www.radiotv.cz/p_tv/potrebuje-cesko-dalsi-zpravodajskou-televizi-ma-z24-sanci-na-uspech/
http://mam.ihned.cz/media/c1-65355050-milkovics-chce-spustit-novou-zpravodajskou-televizi-mnam-i-mnau-dostanou-novy-vizual
http://mediahub.cz/rozhovory-35810/pal-milkovics-chysta-novy-televizni-kanal-a-tvrdi-staci-tri-procenta-a-vydelame-838652
http://www.mediaguru.cz/2015/06/mnam-tv-se-v-radu-mesicu-rozsiri-na-slovensko/#.Vd-BVrSgOuc
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm5499688/filmotype
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/new-nordic-food-channel-starts-broadcasting-in-cable-next-fall-122638308.html
http://www.tmcnet.com/scripts/reprint.aspx?PagePrint=http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2011/05/26/5535760.htm
http://www.sr.se/webbradio/webbradio.asp?type=db&id=1157884
http://www.marmai.fi/uutiset/kokki-garam-saa-oman-ruokakanavan-6276987
http://umami.fi/ruoka-juoma/umami/pohjoismaisen-ruoan-tv-kanava/

Pikipaki2222 (talk) 07:44, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • After further reading on deletion policy of Wikipedia I would like to add more argument of keeping this article:
- There is continues significant coverage of the person WP:CONTIN
- This person has been involved in multiple notable events WP:MULT. Here is what they are: Founding Nordic Food Channel in Finland in 2012, founding Mnam TV in 2014, founding Mnau TV in 2015, founding Z24 TV in 2016
- Most importantly he has received significant coverage in multiple published, secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject. WP:BASIC , here are the references from the article:
www.mediaguru.cz/2015/11/barrandov-presune-bezdruzice-muzeme-mit-i-maresovu-show/#.V7NmlmVLGgE
http://www.mediar.cz/k-mnam-a-mnau-pribude-zpravodajsky-kanal-z24/
http://www.digizone.cz/clanky/pal-milkovics-tezke-casy-skoncily-pripravujeme-nove-projekty/
http://www.radiotv.cz/p_tv/potrebuje-cesko-dalsi-zpravodajskou-televizi-ma-z24-sanci-na-uspech/
http://mam.ihned.cz/media/c1-65355050-milkovics-chce-spustit-novou-zpravodajskou-televizi-mnam-i-mnau-dostanou-novy-vizual
http://mediahub.cz/rozhovory-35810/pal-milkovics-chysta-novy-televizni-kanal-a-tvrdi-staci-tri-procenta-a-vydelame-838652
http://www.mediaguru.cz/2015/06/mnam-tv-se-v-radu-mesicu-rozsiri-na-slovensko/#.Vd-BVrSgOuc
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm5499688/filmotype
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/new-nordic-food-channel-starts-broadcasting-in-cable-next-fall-122638308.html
http://www.tmcnet.com/scripts/reprint.aspx?PagePrint=http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2011/05/26/5535760.htm
http://www.sr.se/webbradio/webbradio.asp?type=db&id=1157884
http://www.marmai.fi/uutiset/kokki-garam-saa-oman-ruokakanavan-6276987
http://umami.fi/ruoka-juoma/umami/pohjoismaisen-ruoan-tv-kanava/

Pikipaki2222 (talk) 08:48, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Doesn't establish notability:
Being _related_ to Holocaust survivor (someone may use it as excuse to troll so it shouldn't be listed.)
  • Doesn't own Michelin-start restaurant (couldn't find guideline, so I used notability of Gordon Ramsay)
  • His documentaries haven't had exposure to 'greater public'(win of/nomination/screening in European Film Awards/Cannes or similar..)

(Did extra Hungarian Google(https://www.google.hu/) litmus test with "Pál Milkovics + Európai Filmdíj(Hungarian name of "European Film Awards") + [original title of document], all in one search string with Boolean emphasis. Repeated with Cannes and Sundance Festival with their respective Hungarian names.)

First document: no full match, all missing two or more of search terms
Second: no full match, all missing two or more of search terms
Third: zero results
Fourth: zero results/no full match, all missing two or more of search terms(there are two ways to write uranium bomb in Hungarian or was there typo? 'Uránbombák' and Urán Bombák(this one produced results.))


And the sources...
Not reliable:
http://www.imdb.com/
http://www.tmcnet.com/
Couldn't access through archive.org: (Used it only because reference link gave message "Page or audio not found".)
http://www.sr.se/
reklama :
www.mediaguru.cz/ (Two links)
http://www.mediar.cz
Carbon copies:
http://www.marmai.fi/
http://umami.fi/
http://www.prnewswire.com/
This leaves us....
Two interviews:
http://www.digizone.cz/
http://mediahub.cz/
One I'm not sure about: (no _own_ article in .cz wiki/not in country profile/just used as source/external in articles about.. various tv series or stations, radio engineering, ::radio stations information, multiple persons profile....... and on CET 21...)
http://www.radiotv.cz/

I redact my Keep(if I still can) and replace it with Delete. Read above. (Didn't mean to recast) Fruitmince (talk) 13:55, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Can you please explain what is Wikt:reklama? And why you excluded those sites, for example Marketing and Media is the most trustworthy industry news outlet in the country and belongs to Economia a.s. which is belongs to one of the biggest media company in the Czech Republic.
Would you please explain how is being related to a Holocaust survivor could "someone may use it as excuse to trol"?
Can you tell us how "with good faith" how can you assume the RadioTv is not a reliable source, if you know nothing about?

With all due respect, I don't see clearly your intentions here, you have (read above) tried to advocate to the deletion of the article based on an ill-founded copyright claim, of which I had to prove it, as well you have deleted significant parts from the article of which led Lemongirl942 to believe that the I am somehow related to the person and he did nothing else just to fund one company. Pikipaki2222 (talk) 15:27, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I leave this discussion before descend to rudeness. Fruitmince (talk) 16:34, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • I was not trying to offend you, just were making some points (asking you questions) in order to protect my work. Here I would like to add that the sites you claim are "reklama" (which is advertising in Czech) both are reliable sources for industry specific news, Mediaguru.cz (see its wiki page) is an independent, respected site since 2007, Mediar is one of the most read, also industry specific website and as well a print magazine . Sorry to repeat, and I have no intention to offend you at all, buy you clearly not have enough information to make your claims, but you can mislead others. Pikipaki2222 (talk) 17:44, 13 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep The article it does meet with WP:GNG WP:SIGCOV we like it or not. The guideline says: "Sources may encompass published works in all forms and media, and in any language." and "Sources do not have to be available online or written in English". 213.174.99.146 (talk) 16:16, 14 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
— 213.174.99.146 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Comment on sources Just to clarify I wasn't misled and I stand by my vote that the subject is not notable. A closer understanding of the sources shows why they are not reliable.
  1. http://www.mediaguru.cz/2015/11/barrandov-presune-bezdruzice-muzeme-mit-i-maresovu-show/#.V7NmlmVLGgE - closely affiliated to industry. See [1]. Not to be used per WP:SPIP
  2. http://www.mediar.cz/k-mnam-a-mnau-pribude-zpravodajsky-kanal-z24/ - WP:SPIP concerns, source is closely affiliated to industry. The subject's coverage in the article is limited to quotes, which is routine coverage and not useful for notability
  3. http://www.digizone.cz/clanky/pal-milkovics-tezke-casy-skoncily-pripravujeme-nove-projekty/ - Interview (primary source). Also the website may not be reliable. Social media indicates hardly any followers. It also doesn't seem like a news site with editorial standards.
  4. http://www.radiotv.cz/p_tv/potrebuje-cesko-dalsi-zpravodajskou-televizi-ma-z24-sanci-na-uspech/ - Again, concerns per WP:SPIP. The site reports on industry news in the media industry.
  5. http://mam.ihned.cz/media/c1-65355050-milkovics-chce-spustit-novou-zpravodajskou-televizi-mnam-i-mnau-dostanou-novy-vizual - Reliable, (but so far the only one)
  6. http://mediahub.cz/rozhovory-35810/pal-milkovics-chysta-novy-televizni-kanal-a-tvrdi-staci-tri-procenta-a-vydelame-838652 - Interview (Primary source). Not sure about the reliability of the source
  7. http://www.mediaguru.cz/2015/06/mnam-tv-se-v-radu-mesicu-rozsiri-na-slovensko/#.Vd-BVrSgOuc - closely affiliated to industry. See [2]. Not to be used per WP:SPIP
  8. http://www.imdb.com/name/nm5499688/filmotype - IMDB is not a reliable souroce
  9. http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/new-nordic-food-channel-starts-broadcasting-in-cable-next-fall-122638308.html - PR, definitely not independent.
  10. http://www.tmcnet.com/scripts/reprint.aspx?PagePrint=http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2011/05/26/5535760.htm - A literal copy of #9 PRNewswire, no independent.
  11. http://www.sr.se/webbradio/webbradio.asp?type=db&id=1157884 - Unable to access or even find the archive version
  12. http://www.marmai.fi/uutiset/kokki-garam-saa-oman-ruokakanavan-6276987 - Trivial coverage
  13. http://umami.fi/ruoka-juoma/umami/pohjoismaisen-ruoan-tv-kanava/ - Copy of previous source
With one or two reliable independent sources, I will go with a delete at this point. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 17:31, 14 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I am from the Czech Republic, all these sources above are well known, reliable and independent sites, papers in this country I am wondering why others are saying the opposite when they don't even know anything about them. 194.228.20.240 (talk) 06:45, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
— 194.228.20.240 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Delete Foreign references are not a reason for deletion, but lack of notability certainly is. I'm not seeing reliable sources for his notability. Most of the article is actually about ventures he has been associated with. Meters (talk) 07:28, 17 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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