Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nkosazana Daughter

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus‎. There has been reasonable arguments made on both sides of the discussion and neither side clearly prevails, on weight of numbers nor weight of arguments. Stifle (talk) 10:07, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nkosazana Daughter

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Nkosazana Daughter (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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Claims in the lead are that she charted number 30 on "Top albums" but the reference shows this to be Spotify, not Billboard. The other charting such as "number 3 in South Africa" is also streaming and not a major chart so would fail WP:NMUSICIAN in that regard. WP:GNG is also not met as while she has done some collaborations, the references are mentions, routine, blogs, or otherwise non-reliable sources. CNMall41 (talk) 07:23, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Is this a song by Nkosazana Daughter or a collab? Being on a song that received such status does not make everyone associated with it notable. Otherwise, we could create pages for everyone involved. I believe the certification for the song is for the main artist. --CNMall41 (talk) 03:49, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
For the "major music award" in #8 of the guideline, I searched the WP:NMUSIC noticeboard but could not locate the ones listed on the page. I started a discussion to determine if these are major awards. Note that I did not inquire about the South African Music Awards" as this page shows "pending" as opposed to "nominated" or "won."--CNMall41 (talk) 04:01, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As for awards, Soundcity should be enough. However, I think it's TOOEARLY as I've been looking for SiGCOV for some time now, and ultimately couldn't find any. Subject is mostly on an article for featured song(s), outside non-RS gossip, and that Mpura and DJ Maphorisa put her on, she has nothing. Released an album mid-2023 (which fails #5 per WP:NMUSICBIO because it is self-released), featuring guest appearances from big names across Africa but somehow didn't make the news, chart, receive nominations, nor certificates. Until SIGCOV is presented, I'm leaning towards weak delete. dxneo (talk) 04:23, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for pointing out the awards as I was thinking Grammies, MTV Music Awards, etc. and wasn't considering international awards prior to my nomination. Let's hope we can generate feedback from the talk page of WP:NMUSIC. She obviously isn't your run of the mill WP:GARAGEBAND based on some verifiable content so maybe the awards will allow the page to get over the hurdle. --CNMall41 (talk) 04:41, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
CNMall41, I think the problem here is only SIGCOV, WP:MUSICBIO states that "Subject may be notable if they meet at least one of the following criteria", emphasizing may. This is a close call (as she was nominated in not one but three award ceremonies), which I can't can't really decide to either weak keep or weak delete. I guess we will see what other researchers present as time goes by. dxneo (talk) 04:59, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Okay let's look at it this way. WP:MUSICBIO states that the subject may be notable if they at least meet one of the following criteria:
1. Has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable, not self-published, and are independent of the musician or ensemble itself:
Subject has had a fair share news and passing mentions here & there.
2. Has had a single or album on any country's national music chart:
I could not find any recording(s) where the subject is credited as the primary artist that charted. However as a featured artist she has charted multiple times here peaking at no. 1 on The Official South African Charts and here on Billboard South Africa songs with "Sofa Silahlane" by Master KG, and again peaking at no. 1 here with "Dali Nguwe" also by Master KG, and that is just to mention a few.
3. Has had a record certified gold or higher in at least one country:
There is no record of the subject receiving any sort of musical certification as a primary artist, as a featured individual she received not one but two with "Nomathemba" and "Yini Sdakwa".
4. Has received non-trivial coverage in independent reliable sources of an international concert tour, or a national concert tour in at least one sovereign country:
Subject had a show outside of her birth country in Zimbabwe, not sure if that counts.
5. Has released two or more albums on a major record label or on one of the more important indie labels (i.e., an independent label with a history of more than a few years, and with a roster of performers, many of whom are independently notable):
Clearly it is non-negotiable that the subject ultimately fails this criterion as they released only one studio album of which is self-released.
8. Has won or been nominated for a major music award, such as a Grammy, Juno, Mercury, Choice or Grammis award:
Subject was nominated for Soundcity MVP Awards Festival (and also as a featured artist) here, and for SA Dance Music Awards here, and for two categories at the SA Amapiano Awards here
10. Has performed music for a work of media that is notable, such as a theme for a network television show, performance in a television show or notable film, inclusion on a notable compilation album:
As a vocalist often featured by record producers, she performs quite a lot. She performed on Channel O multiple times here and here, not sure if this counts.
And while doing rounds on this site I noticed not only Nkosazana Daughter "claims" notability through their collaborative works, but also Nia Pearl and Kyla Reid, the latter featured on "One Dance" by Drake. In conclusion I think it's safe to keep and rewrite the article to maintain neutrality in accordance to our guidelines. dxneo (talk) 08:44, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You say "she's a featured vocalist on two platinum-certified songs and a featured vocalist on a song that spent five weeks at #1." Would this mean any performer on a #1 song would qualify under WP:NMUSIC? My contention is that if she is truly a "musician of some prominence," the media would have taken notice. --CNMall41 (talk) 20:51, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
On #1 of my analysis I did say she had a fair share of news coverage and yes I believe the media noticed her as the subject contributed a lot in the music industry and I think if RiSA was up to speed with certifications, Nkosazana Daughter would be featured on more than just two Platinum singles. One thing we always leave out is that even if the artist is not credited as a primary artist, the song is still theirs too. dxneo (talk) 21:57, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for any confusion, but the question was posed to Chubbles. The inline may not have been accurate. I do have a question about "even if the artist is not credited as a primary artist, the song is still theirs too." Are you saying we consider this for notability purposes on Wikipedia? I have never seen it applied this way but would help me in future reviews if you can point me to a discussion or specific policy. --CNMall41 (talk) 22:05, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
My apologies, ping him. Please don't put words in my mouth, I think it depends on the coverage the individual gets. Again look at "One Dance", Kyla Reid's "Do You Mind" (released in 2008) was non-notable til it was sampled by Drake and Kyla wasn't notable too because her article and the song's article were created in 2016 subsequent to the release of "One Dance" of which she was featured on, we all know the charting history and certifications of the song. Looking at Kyla's discography, she didn’t contribute much to the industry and her lead statement states that she's best know for "One Dance". dxneo (talk) 22:32, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No apologies necessary. As far as putting words in your mouth, I do not see how that happened. I apologize if you took it that way, but I simply asked a question about a statement you made so please WP:AGF. As far as the example, Kyla is a false equivalence. She's notable as she charted for "Do You Mind," a song she both wrote and recorded. --CNMall41 (talk) 05:42, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Her song was released in 2008 and charted in 2009, please bring SIGCOV from that time frame. Anyway, that's off the topic as the subject of the matter pass #1, #4, #8 and #10 per WP:MUSICBIO and #1 per WP:ANYBIO despite you clinging on "featured artist". dxneo (talk) 06:22, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I was actually discussing your contention but now you are becoming bitey even after asking you to AGF. Your contention is that she is notable for a collab when in fact she is notable for charting, hence why your argument is a false equivalence. --CNMall41 (talk) 07:35, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, signed, Rosguill talk 17:37, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I honestly thought this would be closed by now because I don't see why Nkosazana Daughter's success through features shouldn't count when it states here that Jay-Z tied with Kanye West for most Grammy wins through "Drunk in Love" by Beyoncé, keep in mind that Jay Z is not the primary artist on that song. But then again, the subject still pass WP:MUSICBIO through her awards nominees and a fair share of news coverage. Oh and logic also applies to music producers such as Southside, TM88, and 808 Mafia just to mention a few as they are not primary artists and not even featured artists but they are notable for the recordings they worked on. dxneo (talk) 09:20, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is the same logic you used above for another artist. Jay-Z would be notable outside of that collaboration based on his charted music and significant coverage. --CNMall41 (talk) 19:17, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
CNMall41, so now notability through features is out of the picture? Great. Like we mentioned above, the subject has a fair share of news coverage, please stop hiding under what I am referencing/giving example of and give evidence as to why you think the subject isn't notable, until then, I'm out. dxneo (talk) 19:45, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's not what I said. I don't know the reason for your contentiousness so again I would ask that you assume good faith. You made a WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument (twice) and I pointed out why those arguments did not apply to this situation. I have already stated my reasoning for deletion several times and even reached out for feedback on the award (so far, only one response). If it helps, I will reach out to WP:RSN as I have never heard of the other references being cited here. If they can be used for notability, then by all means the subject would pass WP:GNG.--CNMall41 (talk) 04:17, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@CNMall41 Consensus already reached here and I am wondering why you insist on having the request open for farther weeks. Notability is not fame nor noteworthiness. Notability is a construct. As per @Chubbles, @Dxneo,@Royal88888, subject has made coverage in multiple reliable sources that are independent of the subject which simply means that the subject is notable. It doesn't matter why it's notable, once it's notable it's notable. It is now two weeks and yet the request is not closed simply because you are looking for more "Delete" votes. Currently the votes are: Keep = 4, Delete=1. Just observing, not personal. Peace and kind regards. --Tumbuka Arch (talk) 15:32, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It is good to be checking up on here. Tumbuka Arch (talk) 15:40, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I find it puzzling how you ping everyone who supports your view, yet leave out those who have not. I am also not sure why you want to WP:INSULT. Which by the way, is more of one towards @Rosguill: who is the admin who extended the discussion. I am not "looking for more delete votes" as you say. AfD is not about vote count, it is about consensus.--CNMall41 (talk) 03:45, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
CNMall41, no one is insulting no admin, since you always look for excuses he should have mentioned Voorts. At this point the best thing is to tell the AfD run its course and not interact with you as sources have been presented, to avoid further relisting(s). dxneo (talk) 05:08, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I was accused of keeping this open because of looking for more votes. I never requested it to remain open. An admin relisted. Not sure how the user missed that. I am also not sure why you continue to create a WP:BATTLEGROUND but it needs to stop. --CNMall41 (talk) 05:56, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@CNMall41 I am not accussing you of anything. I meant that all this AfD is taking time to get closed and is being relisted because discussion looks like it's still going on, but it's not. This is you due to not understanding what other editors are pointing to. You have even questioned Soundcity MVP Award and Basadi in Music Award if they are notable awards by opening a discussion on Notability talk page (which is, of course, not bad). Every country has its own national awards that are notable to it. So Basadi in Music Award and other such awards are major and most prestigous awards in South Africa. Best--Tumbuka Arch (talk) 06:20, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: WP:BLP is the policy that applies to this article, and it requires strong sourcing. The sources above are mainly name mentions in lists, I did a source eval table of the first 8 cites above, the remaining are more of the same promos and mentions in lists:
Comments Source
Name mentioned in list https://thenativemag.com/tg-omori-soundcity-mvp-2023/
Name mentioned in list https://www.iol.co.za/sunday-tribune/entertainment/dlala-thukzin-kabza-de-small-and-skye-wanda-lead-2023-sa-dance-music-awards-nominations-7c695b4e-8991-4313-83ad-589020e2bca1
Name mentioned in list https://www.musicinafrica.net/magazine/sa-amapiano-awards-2023-all-nominees
Info about album, nothing WP:SIGCOV about subject https://www.risa.org.za/website/certification/certifications/?artist=Nkosazana+Daughter&title=&label=
Promo interview https://www.timeslive.co.za/amp/tshisa-live/tshisa-live/2023-08-28-listen--amapiano-helped-me-find-my-voice--nkosazana-daughter-reflects-on-her-career/
Name mention, no WP:SIGCOV https://theofficialsacharts.co.za/the-hottest-local-music-radio-chart-in-south-africa-week-15/
Name mentioned in list https://www.risa.org.za/website/certification/certifications/?artist=Nkosazana+Daughter&title=&label=
Promo from publisher, fails WP:IS https://groove-africa.com/apple-musics-latest-africa-rising-recipient-is-amapiano-singer-songwriter-nkosazana-daughter/
I stopped adding because it is plain the keep votes above do not understand WP:BLP or MUSICBIO.
Comments based on MUSICBIO are depending on a "may be notable" guideline and sources do not bear this out and WP:BLP applies. Ping me if WP:THREE sources are found from WP:IS, WP:RS with WP:SIGCOV addressing the subject directly and indepth (a mention in a list is not indepth SIGCOV).  // Timothy :: talk  08:46, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please do well to not try and make us look like we don't know what we're doing here, after all we have created multiple clean BLPs, and what is it that we don't understand about WP:MUSICBIO? That the subject has made the news ever since her breakthrough? Or that she is an award-winning/nominated individual? See this and this all RS (green sources), from what's written there and other other source (including that she has passed MUSICBIO) tell me that you can't sum up SIGCOV. Saying we don't understand WP:N is a low blow. MUSICBIO say may be notable if they pass at least ONE..., how many did the subject pass? dxneo (talk) 11:43, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There is a difference between BLP which is a policy and MUSICBIO which in a guideline. Your opinion that this passes MUSICBIO is moot, because sources do not indicate this meets BLP policy. There is an explanatory essay at Wikipedia:The difference between policies, guidelines and essays; it should be clear that policy takes precedence over guidelines. You also need to read WP:BLUDGEON.  // Timothy :: talk  12:23, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
TimothyBlue, where did you get the sources you just reviewed? What would SIGCOV be doing in music charts (theofficialsacharts.co.za), awards nominations (www.iol.co.za, thenativemag.com, and musicinafrica.net) and recordings certifications (risa.org.za)? Come on now, so basically you did not review anything. There's not a single RS about the subject in your review other than TimesLIVE of which you lied and called promo because its an interview where as TimesLIVE is a RS. My worry here is that you did not search hard enough to find simple two sources I just mentioned above and the fact that the subject has been making the news ever since. Again, combining all the sources we mentioned above, one cam sum up SIGCOV and possibly produce a stub and most likely a start article. dxneo (talk) 13:08, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And how did you reach the conclusion that the last source on your review is promo? dxneo (talk) 13:14, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
...and why did you review the same RiSA link twice? dxneo (talk) 13:32, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
WP:BLP is policy, it requires strong sourcing. It requires WP:IS WP:RS with WP:SIGCOV addressing the subject directly and indepth. I've stated I do not think the sources above meet this requirement. The sources you recently provided, [2], [3], [4], the subject is named in a list, this is not WP:SIGCOV addressing the subject directly and indepth. [5] is your strongest source, however since the source is also the publisher of the music and they are promoting them as an artist there is a problem with WP:IS, however I recognize others might disagree, as they have above. If you provide sources that are independent of the subject WP:IS, meeting WP:RS with WP:SIGCOV that address the subject directly and indepth and you will have my keep vote. This may be a case of WP:TOOSOON. ' // Timothy :: talk  14:47, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The chart data can be sourced sufficiently according to WP:V (policy) and it is not particularly a WP:BLP concern. The analysis here suggests that living musicians must meet a much higher notability standard (BLP, almost NCORP as worded here) than dead ones (who would just have to meet WP:MUSIC). I don't think that's a healthy way to think about notability. Chubbles (talk) 15:08, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I understand others disagree, I was surprised I couldn't find anything with WP:SIGCOV, which is why I think this is probably just TOOSOON. I seriously doubt this discussion will result in a delete.  // Timothy :: talk  15:25, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
TimothyBlue, what did you mean by "the source is also the publisher"? You still did not answer my above questions regarding reliability and promotional concerns about this source. Your review is not about the subject at all, awards/noms, certifications, and charts does not cover the significance of the musician which cancels out that review. dxneo (talk) 15:31, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Detailed analyses of the sources claimed to provide SIGCOV would be helpful.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Vanamonde (Talk) 23:49, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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