Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mughal-Sikh Wars

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Going with the keeps. Please discuss article improvements and changes on the talk page. Thanks everyone for participating and assuming good faith. Missvain (talk) 18:18, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Mughal-Sikh Wars

Mughal-Sikh Wars (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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I'm not sure what needs to be done with this article. I raised the issue on both the Military History and India wikiprojects, but no significant issues were resolved by the limited response, so I think AFD is now the best option.

This article is a mess. First of all, the entirety of the prose is original research, with parts of it having a significant POV, too. What then remains is various lists of battles. Some of these have a Wikipedia article, some others are supported by a reference, but most have neither an article nor a reference. On top of that, a significant part of the references is unreliable (sites like Daily Sikh Updates and Abhipedia).

The biggest problem is, I think, WP:SYNTH: this article basically lumps together all conflicts and battles involving Mughals and Sikhs over the span of almost three centuries and calls it 'the Mughal-Sikh Wars'. There clearly have been various wars involving Mughals and Sikhs, but I don't get the impression that any literature on the topic considers these all to be part of essentially a single, long-running conflict, which this article in its current state does suggest. That doesn't necessarily mean that no article covering all these wars could exist, but I think this one just isn't it.

One alternative to deletion would be to rename to "List of battles between Mughals and Sikhs" or something similar; throwing out all the OR and retaining only a simple list of properly sourced battles. It should be noted, though, that some of the listed battles may not even fit that title: just for example, the Battle of Jajau was part of an inter-Mughal civil war with only secondary Sikh involvement.

These are just my thoughts. Some slightly-more-expert opinions are very welcome. Lennart97 (talk) 15:33, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Lennart97 (talk) 15:33, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Lennart97 (talk) 15:33, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. Lennart97 (talk) 15:33, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: Hello Lennart97, what is your opinion on draftification?. Like you said, this article is a whole mess. But I believe someone, who is a good expert in history can fix these issues by removing all the unwanted contents and unrelibale sources. After all, this seems like a good topic. Regards. Kichu🐘 ^{Need any help?} 00:35, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  @Kashmorwiki: If all unsourced/unreliably sourced content is removed, what's left is a list of battles, and I think that would be a fine solution, at least temporarily, if appropriately renamed. Anyone could do that very quickly, though. What would take an expert or at least a dedicated editor is re-writing this article as an acceptable-quality broad overview of Mughal-Sikh conflicts by adding reliably sourced prose. I think draftifying wouldn't be necessary for that though, as there seems to be nothing to salvage from this version of the article apart from the list. It may be better to reduce this article to a list of battles, start a separate draft for a proper article if and when someone wants to write it, and merge that draft back into this article when it's ready. Does that make sense? Lennart97 (talk) 18:36, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Lean towards keep -- Yes it is synthesis, but any article of this kind inevitably is. It is more in the nature of a list article than a full blown history. Such articles are better for not been too heavily referenced, as the right place for the detailed references is in the articles on specific topics. If (as suggested) there are battles in which the Sikhs were not heavily involved, they can be removed by editing. Certainly an expert will be needed, or someone with access to good quality reference books. I know little of the subject, but assume good faith. Peterkingiron (talk) 20:38, 17 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  @Peterkingiron: re It is more in the nature of a list article than a full blown history. The problem is that the article as it is does pretend to be a full blown history. Would you agree with removing the unsourced prose sections and explicitly repurposing the article as a list? Lennart97 (talk) 09:56, 18 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Weak delete: There are almost no reliable sources that specifically talk about "Mughal-Sikh Wars" as a collective topic in any detail (cf. Google Scholar), so deletion is probably a valid option. Lennart97's suggestion of moving this to something like List of battles between Mughals and Sikhs (cf. List of battles between Scotland and England) with no prejudice to recreation if reliable sources can be used for a new article here could be a workable alternative to deletion. I have a slight hesitation regarding that though, because if "Mughal-Sikh Wars" isn't notable then a list of such battles may not be either per WP:LISTN. — MarkH₂₁^talk 16:19, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep, Willing to vote for Keep, provided more sources are found. I believe the article has enough potential but per nom, the title of the page is not appropriate. I agree with MarkH21's rationale. Chirota (talk) 17:43, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.