Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Michael Dutton Douglas (3rd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Laura_Bush#Early_life_and_career. This would seem the sensible compromise having read the often reasonable rationales of other !votes. Black Kite (t) (c) 01:06, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Michael Dutton Douglas (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)

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• Delete. WP:ONEEVENT. Person who would not be notable was killed by a "pre-notable." This is still preserved in her bio, but "struck a classmate and killed him" would be sufficient with footnotes. Being killed does not make him notable. It must appear in her bio, but his name is irrelevant. Actually so are his accomplishments. What if he had been the lowest performer in the class? So what? Student7 (talk) 13:14, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. It's surprising that this long-standing article is being nominated now, just when a book by Laura Bush is coming out in which she talks at length about the effect the accident had on her. See this story in The New York Times, for example. "Struck a classmate and killed him" would not be adequate -- it would omit the information that she ran a stop sign, for example. This article can be augmented with information from the book once it's published. Some of that might go into the Laura Bush article but going into full detail would be clutter there. I suppose this article could be moved to Laura Bush fatal car crash or the like, but that would really be fetishizing the "one event" idea. Its current title is where readers would actually look for it. JamesMLane t c 14:34, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 14:46, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - some AfD maven's help needed. This nomination is procedurally messed up. What's been nominated is the talk page. It needs to be changed to a nomination of the article under the title Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Michael Dutton Douglas (3rd nomination), and it needs a box with links to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Michael Dutton Douglas and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Michael Dutton Douglas (2nd nomination). Also, the article talk page links to the second AfD but not the first, which should be added there. I hope these tasks will be tackled by someone better versed in AfD mechanics than I am. JamesMLane t c 15:07, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  Should all be sorted, thank you for noticing this. –xeno^talk 15:59, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge to Laura Bush per WP:BLP1E. Dutton himself unfortunately isn't notable other than being the victim of a car crash involving Laura Bush. Previous nominations have had people comment that to merge it would overpower the Bush article. Much of the relevant information is already there, and what is actually notable here (that he won a popularity contest at school for example I would argue isn't) could easily be contianed there. Laura Bush is a fairly large article and some minor expansion of one paragraph is not going to attract undue weight. - Chrism would like to hear from you 16:27, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. Note that the accident is equal opportunity. if Laura sails blithely through 3 seconds earlier, it is Douglas who strikes her, killing her. She does not grow up. She does not have an article. It is Douglas who goes on to potential fame, marrying (say) Hillary Rodham and merits an article when she becomes President! This is not really an effort to "diminish" anyone who actually doesn't deserve it. Student7 (talk) 23:31, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. I don't see the relevance of this point, but in any event it's mistaken. The accident was not "equal opportunity". She had a stop sign. He didn't. JamesMLane t c 07:53, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge to Laura Bush, or rename to something like Laura Bush fatal accident. Michael Dutton Douglas himself is not notable, and should not have an article; WP:BLP1E technically doesn't apply here, but we should treat it in the same spirit. The article should be rewritten to focus on the event itself, or else merged into the main article. (As an aside, I just looked up Chappaquiddick incident to see that the person killed in that event, Mary Jo Kopechne, does have her own article; however, there's a stronger claim to notability there, and in any case WP:WAX applies.) Robofish (talk) 00:24, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, -- Cirt (talk) 00:11, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete There is coverage of it in Laura Bush (could always use some detail while keeping it npov I suppose). The subject of this article isn't notable on his own though per WP:BIO1E. The event wasn't notable at the time, but it got significant coverage later on because politics etc. which in my opinion would be WP:SENSATION, so not in favor of a merge. A redirect to the appropriate section heading in the Laura Bush bio would seem appropriate.--Savonneux (talk) 03:33, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect to Laura Bush#Early life and career. Well, he kinda fails the "L" part of WP:BLP1E but I think the spirit applies; this kids' name is only known in the context of dying at the (albeit unintentional) hands of a future First Lady. This doesn't rise to the level of notoriety of Mary Jo Kopechne, as Ted was an adult and a senator at the time, as well as the controversies and innuendo that followed his career forever after. A better analogy would be to Donald Turnupseed, the kid who killed James Dean; his name would be of no consequence if he hadn't accidentally killed a movie star. Let's do the same here. Tarc (talk) 14:32, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect per WP:ONEEVENT--137.122.49.102 (talk) 14:44, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Keep Given his prominent mention in Laura Bush's new autobiography, and the subsequent news coverage of that mention, he is more notable now than he was the first two times. Redirecting is not the answer-- it's not fair to Laura Bush that her supporters or detractors would constantly be editing her biography to have more, or less, about this tragic event. For the same reason, it's not fair that this would be retitled as something with Laura Bush's name in it. As to the tired old "one event" objection, do you know why there was only one notable event in his life? Because someone ran over him with a car when he was only 17. The fact that he is referred to in greater detail in 2010 is another event entirely. But for all that, Wikipedia is, first and foremost, a reference source. People refer to Wikipedia (or any other encyclopedia) for the reason that they are curious about something that they have been made aware of and they want to find out more about the subject. Mandsford (talk) 16:00, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment A more prominent mention in her biography doesn't make him any more notable in his own right since it's still inextricably linked to the fact she became First Lady 27 years later. Redirect would keep the information available. --Savonneux (talk) 18:13, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Redirect would keep the information available only if, having been merged from this article into Laura Bush, the information stayed there. It is completely foreseeable that Laura Bush partisans will resist including all this information in her bio, on grounds of "undue weight". Per Wikipedia:Summary style, it's more appropriate that the Bush bio have only a summary, with full detail in a daughter article. JamesMLane t c 00:06, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.