Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Maud Cameron

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Withdrawn. It's very disappointing to see so many people say "screw GNG, let's outsource to a brief add-on to her sister's actual entry that is in no way significant coverage". Very disappointing to see people make up nonsense out of thin air claiming MBE counts for automatic notability despite no consensus or guideline saying so for this not-uncommon lower-level honor, for which a small portion of recipients are WP-notable. Even more disappointing to see people call bias because this is a woman in (perhaps) a woman's profession, even when it is in fact rare for grammar school heads of any gender to be notable for that. Substantive sources may in fact exist, but I expect to see that before keep votes. (non-admin closure) Reywas92^Talk 01:53, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Maud Cameron

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Can't tell why this grammar school headmistress would be notable, seems to be a generic principal and sources are passing or nondistinguishing mentions. Reywas92^Talk 02:37, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Australia-related deletion discussions. Reywas92^Talk 02:37, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. Curbon7 (talk) 03:16, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Curbon7 (talk) 03:16, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per WP:ANYBIO#1, she is a member of the Order of the British Empire, and per WP:ANYBIO#3, she has a minor entry in the Australian Dictionary of Biography. Beccaynr (talk) 03:45, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per WP:ANYBIO #3. The MBE doesn't convince me (it's too low-level an honor, with too many recipients) but the Australian Dictionary of Biography does. —David Eppstein (talk) 04:00, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Having an entry in the Australian Dictionary of Biography is plenty sufficient to establish GNG. Schwede 66 08:53, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. ☢️ Radioactive 🎃 (talk) 09:06, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per David Eppstein and Schwede66. Deus et lex (talk) 10:20, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Beccaynr, David Eppstein, Schwede66, Deus et lex, Maud Cameron does not have an adequate entry in the Australian Dictionary of Biography for automatica notability! Please see in the link that she is only a brief mention in the entry for Winifred Barbara Meredith as her sister and it explicity notes "Maud Martha Cameron is a minor entry in this article". Without a full entry this is not automatic notability and further coverage is expected for just a headmistress. Reywas92^Talk 15:03, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Reywas92, I did note "minor" entry in my comment, but upon further review, because the main article is for her sister, there is more biographical information available about her in the entry than is currently included in the article that could be added, and regardless, the Australian Dictionary of Biography also notes this as an entry for her, and it includes more than a trivial mention due to the amount of information and detail available. I also referred to the award as contributing to her notability in part because the Australian Dictionary of Biography noted it - the AfD nom asks how a 'generic principal' is notable, and these are factors that appear to distinguish her - there are multiple independent and reliable sources that provide content about her family, education, and career, as well as a significant and well-known award. Beccaynr (talk) 15:38, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- "more than trivial" is hardly inspiring, especially for such a generic position with no impact described at all. As David Eppstein said, MBE is widely given and also fails to establish notability. Reywas92^Talk 15:42, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - It is the language of WP:SIGCOV, e.g. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it does not need to be the main topic of the source material, and since this is available from multiple independent and reliable sources, there also appears to be WP:BASIC notability, which includes, If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability; trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources is not usually sufficient to establish notability. My perspective on notability for Cameron is influenced by the sources available to help develop the article, as well as sources that appear to find the award notable enough to include as a relevant fact. A BBC article linked to the Order of the British Empire article explains how after WWI, the award is based on "prominent national or regional roles and to those making distinguished or notable contributions in their own specific areas of activity." Beccaynr (talk) 15:56, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    She's the lowest rank of MBE not OBE, and at least 90% of those listed on the page don't have articles either, this is not basis for notability. Reywas92^Talk 16:10, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    From my view, per the BBC News article linked above, the MBE award is WP:SECONDARY commentary that supports her notability, per WP:BASIC. Beccaynr (talk) 19:09, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    
    @Reywas92: I can't see anyone suggesting she did have the OBE! -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:24, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Part of the WP:Systemic bias that affects our project is the devaluation of jobs done by women. We may tend to view fields dominated by women (like teaching) as less important or worthy of note. Let's be cautious about dismissing her job as "a generic position with no impact." She was awarded an MBE, so clearly someone felt she had impact. (Not that notability requires impact, anyway...) pburka (talk) 18:10, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Bullshit. There are so many countless headmasters and headmistresses and principals or what else have you around the world, and this is indeed a pretty generic position when there's no description given for what she did in this position. I highly respect them of any gender and that is disappointing for you to say I am devaluing women, but it is an absolute fact that we have no indication what Cameron's significance is and grammar school heads are not often notable for that. Looking through Category:Australian headmistresses and Category:Australian headmasters, pretty much every one of them has substantial description of what their impact was, be it within teaching or another area, described in multiple significant sources. We do NOT have that for Cameron. Reywas92^Talk 20:47, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Which part is bullshit? That there's systemic bias on Wikipedia? That we devalue jobs dominated by women? That WP:GNG doesn't require any impact whatsoever? That she was, in fact, impactful, having been awarded an MBE and been president of the Victorian Association of Headmistresses? Please clarify. pburka (talk) 21:39, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  For one, teaching is dominated by women, but being a headmaster is not. But what's absurd is your implication that because education may be less valued, that this role is exempt from the standard expectation of significant coverage. What I devalue is biographies without in-depth sources, or sources like this Who's Who that list a bunch of people without clear indication of their significance. I don't care that she was president of this association – where are the sources describing with some depth what she did as president and why that's important, rather mere mentions that she held a role? WHY would this organization grant automatic notability when there have been dozens and dozens of presidents of the Victorian Association of Headmistresses, and perhaps the New South Wales Association of Headmistresses and the Queensland Association of Headmistresses, and the associations of headmasters, and the countless other organizations which do NOT give automatic notability to their leaders? If the Victorian Association of Headmistresses is so important that we can say "screw GNG" about its presidents, then why doesn't that even have an article? Any other holders of this position or related ones on Wikipedia? MBE is NOT so rare that the need for substantive coverage is thrown out the window. I doubt 80% or more of recipients have Wikipedia articles or meet notability guidelines for them. Reywas92^Talk 22:37, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep As well as the Australian Dictionary of Biography, she also appeared in Who's Who in Australia and so that's a clear pass of WP:ANYBIO. Andrew🐉(talk) 19:18, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Wrong. Many of the others listed in Who's Who include "pastoralist's wife", "banker's wife", "barrister's wife", all of which are short sketches of who their family members were. Cameron shares a page with an I-don't-know-what who came from Canada and likes to read. This is not automatic notability that passes ANYBIO. Reywas92^Talk 20:53, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. I have restructured the page so that relevant information appears in the lead. Either of received an award from the head of a nation Y and was head of a national organization Y is sufficient to establish notability. Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 22:02, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No, there is no guideline or consensus that either of those vague and broad statements give automatic notability. Reywas92^Talk 00:14, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per WP:ANYBIO #3.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 02:24, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep #3 of WP:ANYBIO is met by her entry in the ADB. #1: Her MBE award was one of only 46 given in Australia in June 1955, so not insignificant. Oronsay (talk) 06:04, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep due to WP:ANYBIO#3, entry in Australian Dictionary of Biography.--Eostrix (^{🦉 hoot} _hoot🦉) 07:10, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep seems to meet WP:GNG due to coverage beyond just getting an MBE. -Kj cheetham (talk) 09:01, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep with a non-trivial entry in the Australian Dictionary of Biography plus an MBE she meets GNG. Also agree that there is a tone of unconscious bias in some of these comments which suggest a general devaluing of women's roles and accomplishments. The article could be expanded with more detail of her career achievements, but a lack of this detail is not a reason to delete the article. MurielMary (talk) 12:22, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per GNG + ANYBIO. Furius (talk) 13:06, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Please EVERYONE relying solely or mainly on ANYBIO based on the ADB entry PLEASE look at the article. If you search by "Maud Martha Cameron" then the article comes up titled accordingly, BUT see the caveate in RED. The article is about her sister, "Winifred Barbara Meredith". If you search by "Winifred Barbara Meredith" it comes up titled "Winifred Barbara Meredith". Cameron gets one short paragraph at the end of the article. YES the way the search engine works is very misleading. I am not saying there are no grounds for keeping, but please can we get the evidence correct. Aoziwe (talk) 15:29, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I have not been able to look at these at all but there are possibly up to 2,000 references in the following. Most will be entirely trivial and-or routine, any many probably not the target, but it will only require < 1% to be good ones to support GNG:

Aoziwe (talk) 15:58, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Thank you for the links - it looks like there is more support for WP:BASIC/WP:GNG notability, e.g. SOCIAL NOTES (Leader, 1911, biographical, education, career information), FIRBANK PRINCIPAL LOOKS BACK "Today's girls just like grandma" (The Argus, 1951), She's been head for 40 years (The Argus, 1951), LOOKS BACK 40 YEARS (The Herald, 1951), picture with announcement of her retirement (The Argus, 1954), No chalk dust in her eye (The Argus, 1954, in-depth profile). Beccaynr (talk) 19:49, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.