Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mariah binti Ahmad

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 03:34, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mariah binti Ahmad

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Per guidelines like WP:BIOFAMILY and WP:INVALIDBIO, her notability is essentially tied to her spouse, Haji Zakaria bin Muhammad Amin, a Muslim scholar in Bengkalis regency, a minor regency in Indonesia. Even the reference provided in the article mainly relates to her spouse rather than her own achievements. Ckfasdf (talk) 15:55, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am also nominating the following related pages because of the exact same reason as above, WP:BIOFAMILY and WP:INVALIDBIO:

Ckfasdf (talk) 16:06, 7 March 2024 (UTC) Ckfasdf (talk) 09:35, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 16:16, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Indonesia-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 16:16, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 16:16, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

~~Procedural close~~ - the articles bundled in this AfD do not seem to be sufficiently similar for a single discussion to effectively address, based on notes added by the nominator indicating possible alternative bases for notability, e.g. academic, creative, artist, as well as the article contents, indicating e.g. civil servants, actors, authors, and a religious figure, need to be evaluated for significant coverage. Beccaynr (talk) 19:39, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Beccaynr: All of the individuals mentioned are related to Haji Zakaria bin Muhammad Amin and the only reason we have articles about them is because of their connection with him. None of them are notable enough on their own per WP:BIOFAMILY. The primary reference for these articles is a book authored by Saputra et al in 2020, which briefly mentions his family members. Ckfasdf (talk) 21:01, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If the articles were substantially similar as described at WP:BUNDLE, then I would not suggest a procedural close. But these articles do not appear to only claim notability based on a family relationship, e.g. per WP:INVALIDBIO, and instead make various claims of significance that suggest a need for research and evaluation according to various notability guidelines. For example, the lead of Siti Zainab includes at the beginning that she was "credited as Zainab, also known as Inab or Ibu Zainab, was an Indonesian actress, singer, dancer, homemaker, who was active in the 1940s and 1950s. She was known for her appearance in Singapore film industry along with Kasma Booty and Siput Sarawak." This suggests multiple search terms, a potential need to research offline and/or non-English language sources, as well as a basis for notability independent from a family relationship; and the primary reference in this article does not seem to be the 2020 Saptura et al book, but instead seems to be a 1951 source in Indonesian; Muhammad Yahman cites multiple sources, but not the 2020 Saptura et al book; Muhammad Asyrof Al-Ghifari, who has film and television credits and a director credit listed in his article; Gamal Abdul Nasir Zakaria is an academic and author of four books according to his article, and cites multiple sources in addition to the 2020 Saptura et al book. According to WP:BUNDLE, Bundling AfDs should be used only for clear-cut deletion discussions based on existing policy, so the varying potential independent claims of notability appear to support a procedural close. Beccaynr (talk) 21:46, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Beccaynr, I just wanted to let you know that I've seen your proposal and am considering it. I'd like to hear from other editors, too. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 00:59, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OK, that's sounds reasonable. I'll withdraw Afd nomination for most of those articles except for Mariah binti Ahmad (she is only know as wife of Zakaria) and Taraima (she is only know as Mother of Zakaria). For other articles, I'll nominate separate and dedicated Afd. Ckfasdf (talk) 01:18, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, and I have struck my proposal for a procedural close. Beccaynr (talk) 01:44, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am wondering whether a merge would be reasonable, if significant coverage cannot be found to support standalone articles for either or both of the articles now under discussion. Beccaynr (talk) 02:31, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm still opposed to the idea of merging. If we go through with it, it means redirecting both articles under discussion to the target redirect, likely Haji Zakaria bin Muhammad Amin's article. However, there's little to no mention of either of the subjects in the target article, except perhaps in the infobox. Redirecting would only make sense if there's potential to expand those articles in the future. Let's take a look at notable individuals in Indonesia like Anies Baswedan and Ganjar Pranowo, who were presidential candidates in 2024 election. Despite their prominence, neither of their spouses has a standalone article or even a redirect. Ckfasdf (talk) 10:15, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Mariah binti Ahmad and Taraima; both appear to be WP:INVALIDBIOs because neither seems supported by significant coverage or indications that significant coverage may WP:NEXIST in multiple independent, reliable, secondary sources; WP:NOTGENEALOGY also seems to apply. The sourcing and content presently available about the subjects suggests a merge is not needed and that neither are likely search terms, so a redirect is also not supported at this time. And as a procedural note, because I noticed AfD tags still up on some of the bundled articles noted as withdrawn here, I'll continue to support a procedural close on the articles included in this bundled nomination that have not yet been sent to other AfD discussions. Beccaynr (talk) 20:56, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
FYI, I have nominated separate AfD discussions for all other names in this bundled nomination, except for Siti Zainab and Gamal Abdul Nasir Zakaria. I just learned that both of them already had an AfD discussion in July 2023, with the result being a soft delete. I'm unsure why they haven't been deleted yet. Ckfasdf (talk) 23:10, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you - I had clicked on some templates that led back to this discussion, but that seems to be fixed now, so I have struck my comment - the AfD templates that are up now all lead to independent discussions. Beccaynr (talk) 23:22, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Ckfasdf looks like they were deleted. They've just been recreated since. -- asilvering (talk) 16:49, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Asilvering: I've also recently learned about this situation, so I've initiated another AfD for those articles. You can find them here and here. Ckfasdf (talk) 16:57, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. These BLPs do not show notability and have been created by socks. It would have been easier to prod them. Xxanthippe (talk) 23:28, 11 March 2024 (UTC).[reply]
Delete the remaining two articles in this nomination, Mariah binti Ahmad and Taraima, as badly sourced genealogy cruft with no independent notability. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:32, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: Taraima, which had been the only article besides Mariah binti Ahmad to remain bundled in the nomination, has been speedy deleted by Courcelles (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) as "Mass deletion of pages added by SoilMineo39, G5". I can't exactly see any reason why the lone article remaining in the nomination, Mariah binti Ahmad, should remain on Wikipedia, but have no real comment beyond that. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 21:47, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Wcquidditch, noting for the record that that one wasn’t created in violation of an active block. I, too, have no opinion on this AFD. Courcelles (talk) 21:51, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.