Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ma'ale HaShalom

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Courcelles (talk) 02:29, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ma'ale HaShalom

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It's just a street. No indication of notability. Source given is a passing reference to its existence. PROD removed by original editor. PamD (talk) 21:12, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - I just don't see how the road that half surrounds Mount Zion is "just a street." Even just by its location indicates historic significance. --Oakshade (talk) 07:42, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Yes it is a street but a very important one indeed. It forms the southern boundary to the Old City of Jerusalem, with two of the eight open gates to the Old City located along this street. Altogether, there is a lot of history here. This picture shows how busy of a street it is trafficwise. Linda Olive (talk) 23:39, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So, any sources to support these claims of importance? A photo showing that a street is busy is entirely irrelevant, there are literally millions of busy streets on this earth. A map proving the street exists and is where the article says it is is nice for verification but we need some sources that actually discuss the street itself and explain it's significance. Proper sourcing is the problem in 95% of all deletion debates and the main reason articles are deleted. Simply insisting that it's notable without providing any evidence doesn't cut it. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:01, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Do keep in mind that "Ma'ale HaShalom" is only one variation of the Latin character spelling of this modern Hebrew name. According to several sources, the pre-Israel Arab name was "Ain el-loza" and this again is only a Latin variation spelling of the Arabic name. A street so central in a city that dates back literally thousands of years likely had multiple names with many spellings in multiple languages. This makes 21st century web research difficult.--Oakshade (talk) 03:24, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

When I was in college in Jerusalem more than 20 years ago, I took some courses on the history of Jerusalem, one of that described the history of many of the city's streets. I do not have the textbook that had all the information I would have wanted to provide. I do remember this street having a different name. I had forgotten what it was. Thank you Oakshade for reminding me. Agreed, there are surely lots of sources out there, but not with either of these spellings with English letters. Linda Olive (talk) 22:28, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 20:25, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Transportation-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 20:25, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, T. Canens (talk) 00:52, 29 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Keep This is an extremely important street in the history of an extremely important city. Raisescale (talk) 20:11, 29 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

sigh. Yea, we've already established that people feel that it is a very important street. Now what we need is some verification of that. It seems most of the "keep" arguments are based on the feeling that there must be some sources somewhere. I'm willing to accept that possibility, but unless and until somebody actually cares enough to find those sources all we have to go on is "feelings" which are obviously not sufficient and cannot be considered as reliable sources. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:23, 29 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Tried using Google translate to come up with the Hebrew name so I could check the Hebrew Wikipedia, unfortunately the machine translation doesn't appear to be accurate enough for a match, the words I got back apparently meant "up the peace." If we could find a user who is fluent in Hebrew they could probably help shed some light on this. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:05, 29 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

KeepIt's essentially an extension of Ophel st. There are not too much references for the name "maale hashalom' since it must be a new street name. In HE google, most of the dozens of highly ranked references with that name are about the street being closed due to the Pope's visits. Ophel returns many more substantial links. --Shuki (talk) 21:22, 29 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment That's what I've found about most of the streets in Jerusalem, including this one. Most of them are physically one street that changes names every few blocks. Many are notable, but determining how to name the article or finding sources is difficult. The names translated into English also can be spelled many different ways. I've been planning on writing articles about every street in Jerusalem that doesn't have one, and this has been the main challenge. Linda Olive (talk) 22:03, 29 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've been poking around trying to find a Hebrew speaker to help us out with this, and now here you are! If you could identify some WP:RS in those links and post them either here or, even better, in the article that would be great. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:29, 29 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment on comment: I think that if you're "planning on writing articles about every street in Jerusalem that doesn't have one" then you need to think carefully what content there is going to be in those articles. Existence of a street doesn't imply notability (as far as I know), and you need to tell us why the street is notable enough to merit a Wikipedia article. All this one does is to tell us where it is. PamD (talk) 09:22, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Agree totally with that. I realize Jerusalem is not just another city, but even so there are only so many streets that are notable unto themselves. Passing by notable locations does not automatically confer notability on a street. Beeblebrox (talk) 15:32, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, —msh210℠ 12:48, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Someone above asked for the name of the street in Hebrew. It's "מעלה השלום". (No opinion on the merits.)—msh210℠ 12:51, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I was going to close this, and my inclination was to delete as notability hasn't been established. However, as there are five people keen on keeping this article it seems appropriate to give this AfD another seven days for those five people (or any others) to establish notability by finding reliable sources, and if notability cannot be established within that time then delete. No prejudice against someone starting up the article later when reliable sources have been found which can explain why it is considered notable. SilkTork *^YES! 14:51, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. I have been using Google Image Search to look at old maps. It seems that this street is of relatively humble, recent origins. This 1883 map shows no road south of the Dung Gate. This 1912 map shows a road there, but note the near absence of buildings. No old maps bother identifying it. If sources are provided, recreation is of course an option. Abductive (reasoning) 20:57, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment This maps could serve as sourcing to show the origins of this street. Linda Olive (talk) 01:43, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not really. There is no actual written information about the street itself other than the fact that it wasn't on one map and is on another one. The first map could simply have been inaccurate or incomplete. At the risk of repeating myself, what is needed is reliable sources that have significant, non-trivial mention of this particular street. Since nobody has been able to find those after all this searching, I say we delete the article. Beeblebrox (talk) 01:48, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. After all, I'm only guessing from this map evidence. The only maps I could find online with a name written for it are very recent. Abductive (reasoning) 01:59, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Street has many names in different languages,and there is the potential for sources from different places. Dew Kane (talk) 01:27, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Proffer the names. Abductive (reasoning) 02:23, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Potential or theoretical sources are no good. We need actual sources, not feelings or suspicions that sources exist. Three weeks onto this debate and still nobody can find them. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:08, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.