Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Live Your Voice Tour

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep Soul2Soul Tour and Soul2Soul II Tour, delete Live Your Voice Tour.

This was a bit confusing at first glance, so here's the play-by-play: During the first run of this discussion, the three 'also-nominated' articles below were condensed and improved into Soul2Soul Tour and Soul2Soul II Tour, and both are now referenced with inline citations that establish notability. Live Your Voice Tour was not improved or referenced. There is no claim or proof of notability and no verifiable sources; it is little more than a setlist and a list of dates. It does not merit its own article. KrakatoaKatie 04:53, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Live Your Voice Tour

I am also nominating the following related pages because they have the same lack of notable information. Likewise, most of the content contained within is riddled with POV issues and useless quotes and filler:

Note to closing admin see discussion below, I'm in the process of doing a major "save" to Soul2Soul II Tour 2006, please don't close this out from under me. Thanks! Wasted Time R (talk) 13:40, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Another note to closing admin I have done "saves" of both Soul2Soul II Tour 2006 and Soul2Soul Tour. Please don't nuke these articles! Wasted Time R (talk) 23:53, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Tour itself is not notable, content is nothing more than tour dates and setlist, so WP:IINFO applies Rwiggum (^Talk/_Contrib) 03:04, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete no references. Tigertron (talk) 03:12, 11 July 2008 (UTC) !vote from banned user struck The Evil Spartan (talk) 18:38, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. -- Xymmax ^{So let it be written} _{So let it be done} 03:15, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. -- Xymmax ^{So let it be written} _{So let it be done} 03:19, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep on all three Soul2Soul tour articles. These were very notable joint tours between McGraw and Hill. Soul2Soul II Tour 2006, for example, was not the usual two acts following one another, but a carefully thought out presentation with a dramatic theme running through each segment of the show to a final conclusion. It was also the second-biggest grossing tour of the year, and the top-grossing country tour. All of these factors make this, and the other Soul2Soul tours, quite notable. There is no logic to the notion that every album and every single can get an article, and tours cannot, when more people see the tours and the artists make more money from the tours. You are correct that the article needs better references, but that is a reason to tag it, not delete it. Wasted Time R (talk) 03:32, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete all per Rwiggum. LotLE×talk 04:15, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - per WP:OUTCOMES#Music. LonelyBeacon (talk) 10:03, 11 July 2008 (UTC) WP:MUSIC needs to address this issue more specifically though. LonelyBeacon (talk) 15:26, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per Rwiggum Sceptre ^(talk) 15:41, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rwiggum has just decided to make every tour article I made for deletion, I'm reporting vandalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RSzeliga89 (talk • contribs) 16:50, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rwiggum is not a vandal, and I have undone your very inappropriate marking of his user page. Wasted Time R (talk) 19:14, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

However, I have complete empathy with the position you find yourself in. You have spent many, many hours working on these articles, some of which have been in existence for over two years without a question being raised as to their legitimacy. And now all of a sudden they are all being subjected to a mass deletion purge. Wasted Time R (talk) 19:18, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for reverting my page, Wasted Time, I appreciate it. It isn't that I'm simply trying to purge wikipedia of all tour pages; Rather, I'm just calling into question whether or not these articles are notable enough to exist. That's the reason why these AfD proceedings exist, so that editors can deliberate and come to a concensus on an outcome. And I don't just want this information gone from Wikipedia; I just think that it would be more suited for a shorter section on the artist pages. There just isn't enough substantive content to justify it's own article. Rwiggum (^Talk/_Contrib) 19:35, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Putting the information on the artist's page won't work very well for the Soul2Soul tours, where it would have to be duplicated on both Tim McGraw and Faith Hill. If I do some work on Soul2Soul II Tour 2006 (the one I am most familiar with) over the next day or two, to improve its sourcing, establish its notability in both commercial and artistic terms, and reduce its fannish content, are you willing to look at the result and re-evaluate your position on it? Wasted Time R (talk) 20:08, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That certainly sounds reasonable to me. Also, I think it might be a better idea to combine all three pages into one singular Soul2Soul tour page. You can have a separate section for each year, with information contained within. I'd be willing to help you streamline it if you would like. Rwiggum (^Talk/_Contrib) 20:11, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I've thought about that, but I'd need to do some research into how similar they were in approach and theme (2006 is the only one I saw). I also want to do some research into husband-and-wife tours in general — many have struggled artistically or commercially, such as Cher and Gregg Allman or Jennifer Lopez and Marc Anthony. Part of the notability of the Soul2Soul tours is how well this h-and-w pairing has done compared to the others. Wasted Time R (talk) 20:32, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete all per nom ukexpat (talk) 19:39, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Wikipedia lists tours now? Seriously. Perhaps extraordinarily exceptional, ground breaking tours, yes. But there is nothing to suggest that this tour was notable. Indeed, the article was written before the tour happened and since then hasn't gained any claim to notoriety. WP:CRYSTAL would have applied, but since then it's quite simply non notable, clearly. Not a single reference, just a list of places he was planning to go to and what he was going to do. Looks like advertising to me. Myrrideon (talk) 20:36, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

New Comment. I've done a lot of work today on Soul2Soul II Tour 2006. There's still more to go before it becomes GA-quality, but now the tenses are correct, some of the fannish content is gone, and there's much, much more citing and references than before. And the cites are largely to high-quality WP:RS, such as the New York Times, Boston Globe, Washington Post, CMT, Billboard, and the like. Most importantly, I've rewritten and cited the lead section to establish the tour's notability. If you look at it, you will see that it (a) establishes that this tour was a new artistic work, in that it combined the music of two artists with different characteristics into a whole, brought together by an elaborate stage design and a thematic development of the duet performances during the show; (b) establishes that this tour was a huge commercial success, becoming the top-grossing country music tour of all time, and among the top three and top five tour of any genre both in North America and worldwide for 2006; and (c) establishes that the tour won a top industry award, Pollstar's Major Tour of the Year Award for 2006. I claim that this conclusively demonstrates the notability of Soul2Soul II Tour 2006, and that this article does not belong in AfD. Wasted Time R (talk) 17:06, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nice work, the article really looks pretty good. I'm going to go ahead and change by vote to Keep, but ONLY for Soul2Soul II Tour 2006. However, I still think it would be best if all three articles were merged into a singular Soul2Soul tour article with sections for each year. But as it stands right now, I'd say that you did a great job. Rwiggum (^Talk/_Contrib) 18:20, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I will merge in Soul2Soul 2007, because although some sources consider it a separate tour and some the same tour, I think it's akin to how the rebranded Zooropa and Zoomerang were part of Zoo TV Tour and how Steel Wheels/Urban Jungle Tour go together. But I believe the original Soul2Soul Tour was a completely different artistic endeavor, unrelated except by name, and should have a separate article. Haven't done much research on that yet, so give me a stay of execution on it. Wasted Time R (talk) 19:51, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Another New Comment. I've now done a lot of work on Soul2Soul Tour. There's still more to go before it becomes GA-like quality, but now some of the fannish content is gone, and there's much, much more citing and references. And the cites are largely to high-quality third-party WP:RS, such as the Rolling Stone, CMT, Billboard, Pollstar, and the like. I'm also convinced it does not belong with the Soul2Soul II Tour article, because other than the reuse of the name they have mostly different characteristics about what makes them compelling. Most importantly, I've rewritten and cited the lead section to establish this tour's notability. If you look at it, you will see that it (a) establishes that this tour was a compelling artistic matching, in that it took Hill's pop and techno style and paired it with McGraw's traditional country style, exemplifying a duality that was very much talked about in country music at the time; (b) establishes that this tour was a big commercial success, being among the top five grossing tours of any genre in North America that year and the top country tour that year; and (c) establishes that the tour won Pollstar's Most Creative Tour Package Award for 2000, which is Pollstar's second most important award. I claim that this conclusively demonstrates the notability of Soul2Soul Tour, and that this article does not belong in AfD. Wasted Time R (talk) 23:53, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment While I do believe that Soul2Soul II Tour should stay, I still don't think that Soul2Soul Tour has enough content to justify it's remaining. Rwiggum (^Talk/_Contrib) 00:51, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Notability and amount of content are two different qualities. If two singers of different musical styles came together and recorded a single, and it was the leading single on the country charts for the year, and was the fifth leading single on the pop charts for the year, and won one of the major Grammy Awards, would you not consider that single notable enough for an article? This is the touring equivalent of that. If it's notable but doesn't have enough content for a good article, that's what stub tags or expand tags are for. Wasted Time R (talk) 01:05, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, --PeaceNT (talk) 07:47, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete only Live Your Voice Tour. It does not make claims establishing it as a notable tour. The other articles however, currently do establish notability in ranking as highest grossing country music tours of all time and other notable statistics. Further, the articles appear well sourced through independent resources. Soul2Soul 2007 currently redirects to Soul2Soul II Tour 2006 which appears to be perfectly appropriate. The articles also contain enough content as to be inapropriate to merge with an album article, which I usually prefer to see as the solution for articles on single headliner tours. -Verdatum (talk) 18:21, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

'Delete only Live Your Voice tour, the Soul2Soul tours per above. --Caldorwards4 (talk) 03:14, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep the Soul2Soul tours per the praiseworthy efforts of Wasted Time R. --Bardin (talk) 14:52, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

~~Delete all~~ Keep, weak keep for Live Your Voice Tour - On further inspection, some good work has been done. Notability is good. Tenacious D Fan (talk) 15:36, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.