Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Leader of the Opposition (Sweden)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. The argument that this list is original research is compelling, especially considering that the article is completely unsourced. The "keep" opinions do not cite any sources that might make this content verifiable. Sandstein 16:19, 8 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Leader of the Opposition (Sweden)

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There is no such thing as the "Leader of the Opposition" in Sweden. There is no formal position and its not a title traditionally held by the leader of the largest party. Sweden has a multiparty system with a number of independent parties, and not a united opposition under the leadership of a single person. The article is not accurate or verifiable. "Leader of the Opposition is only a title invented by this article to describe the leader of the largest political party not in government. ArildV (talk) 17:26, 16 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

To support an article about a particular term or concept, we must cite what reliable secondary sources, such as books and papers, say about the term or concept, not books and papers that use the term.

For people who are not familiar with Swedish language:

In Swedish new words can be formed by compounding (here opposition: opposition and ledare: leader). You can found Oppositionsledare in Svenska Akademiens ordlista along with many other commonly used compounds.

Instead of a definite article - "the" in the case of English - Swedish uses suffixes. Oppositionsledaren is the definite singular of Oppositionsledare. It does not indicate in any way that there is only one leader.

You will of course find Swedish newspapers and books that use the word "oppositionsledare" as a description when talking about a politicians (in a municipality, foreign country, county etc.). But to claim that it is a title traditionally held by the leader of the largest party not in government in the Riksdag is something completely different--ArildV (talk) 12:59, 17 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sweden-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:57, 17 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:57, 17 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Agree with the nomination. Sweden has no Shadow Cabinet or similar, and as noted at Leader of the Opposition, that term is associated with the Westminster system of government, where the Leader of the Opposition is a formal title. It is relevant that there is no corresponding article in Swedish Wikipedia; Oppositionsledare redirects to the article about opposition in politics, which mentions the parties that have been in opposition in the Swedish parliament, but there is no mention of a leader of the opposition. --bonadea contributions talk 15:13, 17 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep With all due respect, I can't support deletion of this article. De jure, Sweden isn't associated with the Westminster system of government (like the United Kingdom) and don't have a formal title of the Leader of the Opposition, but that position surely de facto exist in the political reality (as is the case in many other non-Westminster countries). It surely is helpful to have an article about names, etc of people who led the largest opposition parties in Sweden since 1930, with data at one place (instead of searching for it around Wikipedia). As it already exist, why should we delete it? I'm sure the nominator had the best intentions, but I just can't agree with him. --Sundostund (talk) 13:43, 18 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure you had the best intentions but I don't agree. You make a statement here:

that position surely de facto exist in the political reality

Is that observation based on your knowledge and expertise in Swedish politics or is it just an assumption? I disagree and I will explain why below. But first, on Wikipedia we can not have articles about self-invented concepts based on what we think is the reality. We must cite what reliable secondary sources, such as books and papers, say about the term or concept.

You seem to assume that it is obvious who is the leader of the opposition. But the size differences between the opposition parties have often been small, and fluctuated between elections. Compare, for example 1964 and 1968. After the last election (september 2014) try the Social Democrats and the Green Party to form a minority government and we have 6 opposition parties (including both the Left Party, four center-right parties and the Sweden Democrats). There is of course no single leader.

You can of course create a new article The leader of the largest party in Sweden not in government in the Riksdag. But we can not lie to our readers by pretending that there is something called Leader of the Opposition and we can not lie to our readers by pretending that people "serve as opposition leader" in Sweden.

Please also note:

not a single source

the Swedish article was deleted quickly sv:Sveriges oppositionsledare (translation of the reason: nonexistent position, own research, please see discussion page).

--ArildV (talk) 16:25, 18 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, I can't agree with you. My statement: that position surely de facto exist in the political reality isn't based on assumptions, nor self-invented concepts, but on facts. After every election in Sweden (and in any other country), you have party (or parties) which will form the government, as well as those which will be in the opposition. Among the opposition parties, the one which have the most MPs is the "main opposition party" and its leader is the "opposition leader" (no matter whether the position is the official one like in the UK or not). If the "main opposition party" suffers some split, loss of MPs between elections, then the second-largest opposition party becomes the "main opposition party". All of this is very simple... No matter how the size differences between the opposition parties have often been small, and fluctuated between elections, we can always know which opposition party have the largest number of MPs at a moment.

Maybe you'd be "extremely surprised" by what I'll say now, but here it goes: I have no problem to agree to rename Leader of the Opposition (Sweden) to The leader of the largest party in Sweden not in government in the Riksdag! If you agree to that, we can do it (although I think that we can find some easier, shorter name). I don't care how this article will be named or renamed, I just want to save it from deletion, and to spare other users from searching around Wikipedia for data when it can be found at one place (like now). Again, if you have such a problem with the name Leader of the Opposition (Sweden), I'm absolutely positive that we can find some compromise and rename the article.

--Sundostund (talk) 21:06, 18 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Its not fact, it is assumption. You assume that the largest opposition party is the main opposition party, and you assume its leader is the "opposition leader". There are many scenarios where this is not true. We can have four opposition parties, three parties work together while one party (the biggest) working alone. The three parties together is larger than the largest party.

We can not know whether the party is regarded as the main party (we need additional sources for it), we can not know whether the party leader is regarded as the main opposition leader (we need additional sources for it). The only thing we can know is which opposition party that have the largest number of MPs at a moment. An if we are talking about the leader of the largest opposition party, we should call him leader of the largest opposition party and not invent a Swedish title "oppositionsledare" and not lie to our readers by pretending that there is something called Leader of the Opposition and lie to our readers by pretending that people "serve as opposition leader" in Sweden.

I also welcome a compromise, but it is not enough to change the name. All own research must be removed, all the wrong claim that it is a Swedish title and all references to "oppositionsledaren" has to be removed. All the nonsense about people who serve as oppositionsledaren in various articles. In other words, a simple list of the leaders of the largest opposition party. These are facts, the rest is own research and assumptions without sources.

I don't want to come across as irritable or aggressive. But this is a serious issue, English Wikipedia has for over two years spread inaccurate and misleading information. And as Wikipedian I care.--ArildV (talk) 22:24, 18 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I also don't want to look as irritable or aggressive, because I'm not such a person. There's no point in continuing this discussion - you said your opinion, I said mine and I stand by it. Neither you'll change my mind, nor I'll change yours, so let us stop trying to do that. Let other users say what hey think and decide (Wikipedia is ruled by a consensus)... Instead arguing, lets turn towards compromise - I always welcome compromises, and this case isn't an exception. I'm not really sure what you want to change in the article beside its name, but generally speaking I can support to make it a simple list of the leaders of the largest opposition party. Of course, in my opinion, that list should be identical (or almost identical) as the present one, I don't see anything problematic in it. --Sundostund (talk) 23:08, 18 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - per user Sundostund, there are no real reason for deleting this article.--BabbaQ (talk) 22:34, 20 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep - it's not a official position, but the term oppositionsledare is often used, just as Sundostund explains. The existence of several other "leader of the opposition" articles on various countries makes it valuable to have an article explaining how the system works in Sweden. Tomas e (talk) 14:53, 22 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Dusti^{*Let's talk!*} 02:30, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, —Tom Morris (talk) 13:04, 30 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete I appreciate Sundostund's comments, but they seem to me to constitute WP:OR or WP:SYNTH. We should follow reliable sources: if some source somewhere thinks this is an appropriate list, then that would carry some weight, but the article gives no sources, so then it cannot be up to us as editors to decide this is a meaningful thing to list. If the position of the head of the largest opposition party in Sweden has no formal status (as it does in the UK &c.), then I am concerned about Wikipedia effectively inventing the position. I take note of Tomas e's comments too, that the term "oppositionsledare" is often used, but that only implies the need for a Wiktionary entry. An article implies the concept has become reified, and that must come from its discussion by reliable source. That other countries do have a leader of the opposition is irrelevant: again, it is not up to us to apply the concept to Swedish politics -- that has to be done first by reliable sources. I also think it is telling that the Swedish-language Wikipedia rapidly deleted the article! Bondegezou (talk) 17:00, 1 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.