Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/KC International Airlines

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Consensus that sourcing is inadequate, plus WP:CRYSTAL concerns. ansh 666 20:43, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

KC International Airlines

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Non notable. The only sources look like press releases. Slatersteven (talk) 09:22, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. This is a real airline with a real aircraft (MSN 2529) and launching operations. Nominator tagged this for CSD citing "it was deleted earlier" (here). Yes it was deleted but due copyvio and not GNG. Arun Kumar SINGH (Talk) 09:44, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It does not matter if it has a real Aircraft, what matters is coverage. And it has none.Slatersteven (talk) 09:52, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the coverage: CAPA, Alternative airlines, Routes online, ATW online, CH-Aviation, Plane soptters, World Airline News, Business traveler, National Multi Media, Khmer Times, Phnom Penh Post....etc. A simple google search reveals what the coverage is. Arun Kumar SINGH (Talk) 16:39, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

So A lot of trivial mentions, some demonstrating just why crystal is so important (a launch date of March, or was it January). So they have put back their launch date at least twice now. When they actually start flying the article could be recreated, at this time there is no guarantee of what their routs will even be.Slatersteven (talk) 09:18, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Nominator assumed that he sources cited are press releases. What he failed to realize is that none of the sources cited are press releases. CAPA is an independent organization and so is plane spotters. This is a lazy nomination and the nominator deserves a trout since his CSD was based on assumption that article was previously deleted and then he assumed that sources are press releases. Nominator should refrain from nominating articles from AfD. Arun Kumar SINGH (Talk) 16:49, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

What I meant was that they are not in depth coverage, they are the kind of materiel that companies write about themselves and give out. Almost all of the mentions are trivial (with the other one disusing the arrival of their first aircraft), and little more then "We exist" (you will note I did not say they were press releases, I said they look like them). So a few trivial mentions (amounting to they exist) and a newspaper report about them reciving one aircraft (in my opinion) notability does not make.Slatersteven (talk) 09:04, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Planespotters is not considered reliable.--Jetstreamer ^Talk 16:37, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions. Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk • ✍️ Contributions) Please ping me if you had replied 13:43, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk • ✍️ Contributions) Please ping me if you had replied 13:43, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Aviation-related deletion discussions. Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk • ✍️ Contributions) Please ping me if you had replied 13:43, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Cambodia-related deletion discussions. Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk • ✍️ Contributions) Please ping me if you had replied 13:43, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. Seems like a bit of WP:CRYSTALBALLing to me. The airline has not flown any flights and is due to launch in August. --Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk • ✍️ Contributions) Please ping me if you had replied 16:52, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

And from one of the sources "KC International Airlines once again filed service revision for its planned inaugural", then yes Crystalballing is an issue here. Hell they cannot even say when in August they intend to start flying.Slatersteven (talk) 09:04, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep [1] is not a press release. ([2] is a press release.) Commercial airlines are always notable; this isn't operating yet but there seems to be enough coverage to keep, even without using the crystal ball to see if they start operating. power~enwiki (π, ν) 01:07, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- There is almost no coverage of the airline, other than the news that they have bought an Airbus A320 --Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk • ✍️ Contributions) Please ping me if you had replied 18:06, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment commercial airlines are not "always notable"; as has been determined many times in other AfD discussions, airlines must satisfy WP:CORP just like any other companies. Having said that, I am reserving judgement at this time. YSSYguy (talk) 07:48, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep THere's plenty of coverage as mentioned above.--Jetstreamer ^Talk 22:41, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, – Joe (talk) 16:18, 28 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well 2 days untill their inaugural flight, any news?Slatersteven (talk) 09:41, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

None that I could find. The only news I found is the airline receiving their first plane. --Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk • ✍️ Contributions) Please ping me if you had replied 11:08, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

And no others, it is really logical to say an airline with one plane is going to be able to run a scheduled service?Slatersteven (talk) 11:12, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

But it's a very shiny plane

😉

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/67618-cambodias-kc-intl-airlines-secures-52mn-in-funding --Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk • ✍️ Contributions) Please ping me if you had replied 11:20, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Also I did find this: https://www.pilotcareercentre.com/Air-Carrier-PCC-Profile/4071/KC-International-Airlines --Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk • ✍️ Contributions) Please ping me if you had replied 11:40, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

So it is not even (At this time) licensed to operate aircraft.Slatersteven (talk) 11:50, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The article says "The company is presently undergoing AOC Certification with an intended revenue services starting in early 2018 with planning for up to 25 aircraft in the next five years." And it's already mid 2018. Though it was last updated June 20, 2018. --Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk • ✍️ Contributions) Please ping me if you had replied 11:54, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You would have thought if they had been accredited they would have said so, so the latest information is they are still not certificated to operate as a commercial airline. Thus this must fail Crystal ball.Slatersteven (talk) 12:01, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Just curious how could they have bought a plane without licensing? --Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk • ✍️ Contributions) Please ping me if you had replied 12:04, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The same way that Jeremy Clarkson did, I am not sure you need one to own a plane, just to operate it for commercial purposes.Slatersteven (talk) 12:05, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Globally, an AOC is required (or a NOC in case of new applications) before importing an aircraft. The aircraft are endorsed on the AOC and without an AOC / NOC (a.k.a license), there is no way an operator can import an aircraft and register it in the country. Lastly, KC does not own the aircraft and have merely leased the aircraft (dry lease) from Minsheng Financial Leasing. Arun Kumar SINGH (Talk) 23:45, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
So how is KC flying without a license? Or is that article out of date? --Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk • ✍️ Contributions) Please ping me if you had replied 00:29, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think KC is flying now; destinations in the article specify the dates. I only commented on the process for importing an aircraft. It is strange, but two days to "launch" and I don't see their website also. Arun Kumar SINGH (Talk) 02:04, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I did find https://www.alternativeairlines.com/kc-international-airlines and https://www.facebook.com/KCAIRLINES/.

These are their routes, apparently https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/277539/kc-international-airlines-outlines-preliminary-launch-in-s18/ --Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk • ✍️ Contributions) Please ping me if you had replied 06:02, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Also found these https://www.wego.com.sg/airlines/kc-international-airlines-co-ltd-3q https://www.businesstraveller.com/business-travel/2017/10/16/cambodia-prepares-welcome-five-new-airlines/ --Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk • ✍️ Contributions) Please ping me if you had replied 06:05, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions. Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk • ✍️ Contributions) Please ping me if you had replied 08:27, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

More questions, who runs it, who are its CEO or (and) MD (odd we have some lower staff listed, but not who actually heads it)? What time do the flights depart and arrive? How much do they cost? This is all basic information we should have about this airline. Yet we have none of this, despite the "in depth" coverage.Slatersteven (talk) 08:35, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
These are their new routes schedule https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/279616/kc-international-airlines-revises-initial-launch-in-s18/
https://bongthom.com/job_detail/view-70762.html
Also found these
https://mobile.twitter.com/ambrose_xu/status/1004972286737174528
https://mobile.twitter.com/Jesper86908642/status/989435731176079360
http://www.sectorpublishingintelligence.co.uk/news/1906799/kc+international+airlines+selects+airrm+as+its+revenue+management+system --Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk • ✍️ Contributions) Please ping me if you had replied 09:09, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This is their Twitter with no tweets https://mobile.twitter.com/AirlinesKc/with_replies --Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk • ✍️ Contributions) Please ping me if you had replied 09:15, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above raises more questions then answers, does it have an official website or Facebook page? How many staff does it have? An airline about to lunch in a day or so, and not one live update as to status or seat availability? Is it even still going?Slatersteven (talk) 09:17, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.facebook.com/KCAIRLINES/ seem their Facebook page

https://www.facebook.com/KCAIRLINES/photos/a.726576217537052.1073741829.683705931824081/841613212700018/?type=3

https://www.facebook.com/KCAIRLINES/photos/a.726576217537052.1073741829.683705931824081/849890125205660/?type=3 --Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk • ✍️ Contributions) Please ping me if you had replied 09:31, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

And nothing since the middle (being generous) of July.

Ohh and http://kcairlines.com, ohh dear just how much more do we need to say "this is not even up and running yet".Slatersteven (talk) 09:38, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I have received confirmation that User:Sonampha belongs to the company and thus contravenes paid editing. --Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 09:35, 1 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

So this is now crystal balling of the first order, it is a prime example (one might argue a illustrative model). The website is still not up, no service updates (or indeed any updates) for weeks (and on the day as their inaugural flight, and not even any news about why they have not actually lifted off).Slatersteven (talk) 12:14, 1 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I found this article https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/69431-cambodias-kc-air-set-to-secure-aoc-preps-for-launch but I can't read the content because it's behind a paywall. --Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 12:28, 1 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I found a picture on their wall of a KC plane at an airport https://www.facebook.com/KCAIRLINES/posts/825451427649530
So they might be flying but have no coverage. So while they might be operational they may fail notability guidelines. --Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 12:32, 1 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Based on their PM, it seems they have yet again changed their schedule: "Besides, our schedule has been changed due to some reasons and we will launch our news soon." So it seems to be a major case of WP:CRYSTALBALLing. --Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 12:38, 1 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Not yet notable. Our previous practice with airlines is they need to actually begin scheduled flights. It seems a rational distinction. DGG ( talk ) 17:59, 1 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Coverage looks routine to me, and airline doesn't satisfy CORP Enterprisey (talk!) 20:43, 1 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oh nice to see you in AFD. --Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 20:49, 1 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Few reliable secondary sources, with most coverage being run of the mill and simple statistical information useful for little more than verifying that this exists, as well as WP:CRYSTALBALL. Additionally, their website is still under construction, their Facebook has little useful information, and their Twitter is deleted, despite claims that they should have started service several times by now (with continual delays). All this confusion makes it very hard to verify anything.LittlePuppers (talk) 04:08, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment / update. The airline in discussion got it's AOC yesterday (as per Flight Global). This is just to update everyone so that they can decide accordingly. Arun Kumar SINGH (Talk) 06:09, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Odd as their website is still not operational, or do they have another?Slatersteven (talk) 09:15, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per comment above Redditaddict69 (talk) 17:10, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.