Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jose Diaz (baseball player)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete. The debate below is muddied by the history, where a nomination of one article has been turned into a batch listing and then back again. This makes discerning the consensus that much harder, because it's quite clear DGG commented when this was a batch nom, and hasn't been back since. The arguments both draw heavily on WP:ATHLETE, and the debate centres on how to interpret them. Mr Accountable didn't really help us with his comment, and the argument between blackngold29, kelapstick, Kinston eagle and Bogarde over what constitutes a "fully professional level of" baseball is well balanced and needs more discussion elsewhere. The argument put forwards by BRMo and latterly by Wizardman that we need to source from reliable sources are ultimately what swing it. Our policies are built from the position that we need to be able to source our material to verifiable, reliable parties, and that articles should rely on reliable sources. This article cites one source, a website which is capable of being edited by the reader. It is a wiki, and is therefore not a reliable source. Therefore the consensus within our policies is to delete, with no prejudice against a recreation built using reliable sources. Requests for the material to be userfied to help source it will be granted. Hiding T 10:28, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Jose Diaz (baseball player)

Jose Diaz (baseball player) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

Minor League baseball players are under contract with a 'Professional' team, having to be stored in lower class teams, but still 'professional' players with stats. These type of minor league stub can further knowledge of the player by fans in the seats (with Blackberries etc, thus more webhits) or team scouts.

WP:ATHLETE and 'people of notability' doesn't take into account that a 'player' and a 'person' of notability are two different things. A 'person' is vague to define. A 'player' of notability, say a minor league baseball player, does have stats and awards to his name sometimes, and these stubs can add perfectly to what Wikipedia was meant to be in the first place! I have reliable references and always note the stubs accordingly.Gjr rodriguez (talk) 21:34, 3 April 2009 (UTC) Not only are some statistic sites just stats on a webpage, they also carry 'history', 'contact information','stadium information', what can be considered "signifigant coverage" with more research available on player beyond just the stats. The websites I reference are more than just a stat site. The stat sites are referenced for the stat tables, the bio info is from different sources melded and noted accordinglyGjr rodriguez (talk) 21:34, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I declined the speedy deletion request because there's a good faith assertion of importance here, but I'm not convinced this player meets WP:Notability. Gsearch and gnews aren't turning up independent, reliable sources other than stat listings and passing mentions. So it comes down to this: if a player has only had a cup of coffee at AA, has he competed at a "fully professional level" of the sport, as required by WP:ATHLETE? (The proposed Wikipedia:WikiProject Baseball/Notability guidelines says not, but while this did have much consensus, it is just a draft.) Fabrictramp | talk to me 22:11, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

:I'd also like to add:

None of them are really all that notable, are they? - CobaltBlueTony™ talk 23:16, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm opposed to a group nom, each should be review individually as you can't review them together. Borgarde (talk) 08:18, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to boldly unbundle these and list them separately. Based on my conversation with Cobaltbluetony, I don't think this will be a problem.--Fabrictramp | talk to me 15:05, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Nope. I'd have done it already myself, but I'm slammed at the moment... My apologies, and thanks to Fabrictramp for having the time and will to do this. - CobaltBlueTony™ talk 15:15, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom. Don't meet WP:ATHLETE. blackngold29 01:22, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep --Mr Accountable (talk) 03:13, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Split As for Diaz, certainly not just "having a cup of coffee", for he played 6 seasons at A or higher. I think this needs to be split, as individual reasons may apply to each player. DGG (talk) 04:16, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Reply -- my "cup of coffee" remark only applied to his 8 AA games (13 innings pitched total), not to his single-A time. Sorry I didn't make that clear.--Fabrictramp | talk to me 14:44, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete (from my comment at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Juan Richardson)There is broad interpretation among Wikipedia editors of what constitutes "fully professional" for baseball players, I interpret as having played in one of the major leagues outlined in the proposed (but not fully adopted) baseball notability guidelines, and that minor league players are not notable unless there has been significant coverage of them in reliable, independent sources (not just statistic pages), in which case they would pass the general notability guidelines and would not have to pass WP:ATHLETE.--kelapstick (talk) 15:25, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - Statistics or brief mentions in articles about minor league teams do not constitute "significant coverage in reliable sources," as required by WP:N. BRMo (talk) 04:20, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Professional baseball player as per WP:ATHLETE. Borgarde (talk) 05:53, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • He has not competed at the "fully professional level of a sport" which is MLB. blackngold29 15:39, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • MLB is not the "only" fully professional level of the sport. Borgarde (talk) 03:33, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - He has competed at a "fully professional level" and meets WP:ATHLETE. Kinston eagle (talk) 00:50, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. WP:ATHLETE asks for a fully professional league. In different sports, this means different things, and in minor league baseball, this is under controversy. I would think no one believes that all minor leaguers are notable, as that makes no sense. By that same token, saying minor leaguers are never notable doesn't make sense, since one may have many secondary sources on his career. This means we have to compromise. Most frequently, this compromise has meant either a season at AAA, or a decent all-star appearance. If we were to go by this compromise, then he fails WP:ATHLETE and, consequently, WP:N. Saying solely "keep meets wp:athlete" means nothing if it gives the implication that all minor leaguers are notable, which they are certainly not, and in the case of this one, he isn't. Wizardman 00:54, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, all minor leaguers are notable since they are all fully professional athletes. WP:ATHLETE is the guideline that should be followed because he is an athlete. If you have a problem with the notability guideline, discuss the merits of it over at its talkpage. A wikiproject does not have the power to override well established Wikipedia policies that have been arrived at through the consensus of thousands of Wikipedians. Kinston eagle (talk) 01:03, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Saying "Actually, all minor leaguers are notable since they are all fully professional athletes." Is a huge stretch, actually. You're saying someone who played in one game in the rookie league is notable. That's silly. Wizardman 01:29, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thats your opinion. That is what the policy says. Kinston eagle (talk) 01:33, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Stating that secondary sources are needed for a biography is definitely not an opinion. ..I'm usually good at seeing both sides but I can't fathom how someone could consider every baseball player who ever played for the Longview Cannibals (a minor league team from the 30s) to be notable. I mean.. I don't want to resort to just saying "you're wrong", since my interpretation isn't exact either, but you are. Wizardman 01:46, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Not only the Cannibals, but every team here back to the 1910s. blackngold29 01:48, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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