Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jonuz Kaceli

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Shimeru (talk) 00:41, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Jonuz Kaceli

Jonuz Kaceli (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)
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Non-notable outside single event - fails WP:BLP1E. The victims are already listed at Massacre of 1951 in Albania. It might make sense to keep it if being the brother of a famous painter confers some notability on him, or if his business activities really were notable - but I don't see any evidence of such notability. -- Boing! said Zebedee 11:30, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: Boing, are you suggesting that if a reference is brought forward that he pertains to the famous Kaceli family and is brother of the painter, or a reference on the notability of his business activities, you might consider to retire the nomination?--Sulmues Let's talk 11:51, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If his business activities can be shown to be notable in themselves, then yes I'd withdraw the nomination as he would then be notable independently of the massacre. I'm not sure about being brother of a painter, as notability isn't inherited from family etc, so I don't think that would be sufficient even if proven (but others might have different opinions) -- Boing! said Zebedee 11:58, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I will work on it, you must keep in mind it was a import figure, not only that he was the first man in albania executed without anyreason, he was a notable figure in Tirana (and that was the reason why they killed him(!)) --Vinie007 12:02, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The people that where executed where all important figures of that time that where not a communist. It is just a question of time before you can read the important things that they have done. I must collect first some sources before I can add it. --Albanian222 (talk) 13:56, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think you must wait till the article is expanded, please do not rush to delete as much articles as you can! --Vinie007 09:30, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is really only a discussion about whether the article meets notability standards (as per WP:N), and in some ways it's possibly better to check such articles earlier - leaving them until people add more material could end up with more effort being wasted if it is actually deleted. And the discussion will run for at least a week (unless there's an obvious reason for a speedy delete), and can be rolled over for longer if it isn't settled then, which should be plenty of time to establish the notability of the subject. When creating new articles, what a lot of people do is search to establish their notability first and only create the article when they have it - either that, or develop the article first in user space, and only move it to main space when notability is established. Anyway, those are just a few thoughts, and I suspect this one has a good chance of being kept - we'll see how the discussion goes -- Boing! said Zebedee 12:02, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not everyone got so much time like you, so you must be patient. If you really want to show your good side, you can improve it by your self! --Vinie007 12:53, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Come one, let's keep this friendly - there's nothing personal here, and we're all only trying to improve the encyclopedia. I don't have to be an expert on a topic and capable of improving it myself in order to raise questions as to whether it currently meets the Wikipedia requirements - that takes people like yourself who understand the subject. And if it takes a long time to get the article up to standard, then that's what you'll get as a result of this discussion - for example, if the week or so that this discussion continues isn't enough time, then articles under development can easily be userfied for as long as you want, if that is thought to be a good way forward. -- Boing! said Zebedee 15:56, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Every demokrat in Albania will understand what importance these figures had. --Albanian222 (talk) 16:30, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's good, but you really need to provide some sources (see WP:RS) showing notability independent of their executions - for example, some evidence of their activities prior to that event -- Boing! said Zebedee 16:44, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep or incubate until we find a reliable source for notability. Jonuz Kaceli was notable under several counts: as a business person, as a post mortem recepient of a medal from the President of Albania for his contributions to democracy, and through his act: he personally attacked and tried to hurt the future Prime Minister of Albania Mehmet Shehu, while he was being interrogated personally by Shehu. I am personally convinced we'll be able to come up with sources soon. He is one of the best known dissidents of Communist Albania. My suggestion is to keep, because incubation is more lengthy, but if someone really needs to delete it, it's better to incubate. --Sulmues Let's talk 17:19, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Agree with sulmues --Vinie007 14:32, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak keep Yeah echoing what was said above, this guy was a notable figure to the Albanians, otherwise they wouldn't have targetted him LOL. Needs more sources and expansion. This is definately a completely valid nomination though. The way the article is written fails ONEEVENT. It needs to be written from a neutral perspective saying he was a businessman etc who was unfortunately killed. Not .... was one of the 23 killed in one event. If you cannot not write about his importance as a figure indepently of this event then this does fail and should be deleted. Dr. Blofeld White cat 14:51, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Agreed and I'm working on it. I already have copies of an article dedicated to him, which can be used as a WP:RS. I'm going to use it as a reference and just in case we'll also have a copy of it on commons. --Sulmues Let's talk 02:38, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Keep Some nice work has been done on this article, so well done and thanks to those people who have put in the effort. It looks to me as if it's going to end up being kept now. (I won't formally ask for this to be withdrawn, as others might still have some important input) -- Boing! said Zebedee 17:22, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry, I meant that to be a change to "Keep", but I started out with a comment and forgot to change it -- Boing! said Zebedee 20:13, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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