Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John W. Ross

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. -- Cirt (talk) 03:00, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

John W. Ross

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

No reliable source given to establish his notability -- indeed, it's not established that all the buildings listed here were actually designed by the same J. Ross. Designing notable buildings does not automatically make you notable. SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:27, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nomination statement no longer applies, since information about 2 architects has been developed and split to 2 articles. --do ncr am 04:10, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy Keep The AFD is a response to some content disagreement, or really just some temporary lack of complete information, at Talk:John W. Ross. The resolution of that will be clarification that there was one architect in both Iowa and North Dakota in that era (most likely), or that there were two notable architects, both deserving of Wikipedia articles. An architect who has major public works such as substantial city halls of moderate sized cities, and multiple buildings listed on the National Register of Historic Places for their architecture, is going to be Wikipedia notable.

To SarekOfVulcan: I have noticed you have opened a number of administrative proceedings and requested moves and AFDs and other actions, sometimes without your actually taking a position, as if to merely test the waters, and call for other editors to resolve some question. If you don't actually have a position that is really your opinion that you will defend, I would call those "false" proposals. Which is this? Is this a false proposal, or do you seriously think this article should be deleted? --do ncr am 17:40, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I found coverage in Google Books for St. Stanislaus Catholic Church in Warsaw, ND and the Plummer House in Hillsboro, ND. I also found a couple web references for Davenport Hose Station #1 and Davenport City Hall. I don't know if this guarantees that the "John Ross" who designed all these buildings is the same person, since "John Ross" could be a reasonably common name. Since this John W. Ross designed at least a few notable buildings that are on the National Register, I'm going with keep for now, but I'd like to see more evidence that the same John W. Ross actually designed all of these buildings. His name is more common than Clarence H. Johnston, Sr.. --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 20:56, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I saw some of those refs, but discounted Directory of historic house museums in the United States because it's only a mention of the name, not significant coverage of the architect. America's religious architecture is a bit better, because it establishes him as having built many other buildings in ND -- but nothing yet connects all the buildings listed here. Especially as the QCMemory links refer to him as a "local Davenport" architect known for local buildings. I would think that we'd need a birth or death date to nail down notability here.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:05, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep based on clear sourcing that he was an important North Dakota architect. Whether the Iowa architect is the same person is not an issue for AfD.--Arxiloxos (talk) 21:29, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Architecture-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 00:49, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 00:49, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Remove from article space (i.e., userfy or move to project space) for development, and don't return to article space until there's at least enough solid information to determine whether this is one person or two. It appears to me that this is about two people by the same name: (1) John W. Ross who trained in Wisconsin, arrived in Grand Forks in 1880 and designed important buildings in the 1880s and 1890s and (2) John W. Ross who arrived in Davenport in 1874 and designed or supervised important buildings built in 1888 and 1895. It doesn't seem real likely that one guy was moving back and forth between Davenport, Iowa, and Grand Forks, North Dakota, (two not-very-large cities that aren't real close to each other), but did no important work anywhere else. One or both of these men may turn out to be notable. However, until there's enough solid content to write one or two biographical articles, the information here about the architect(s) can be included in the articles about the buildings he or they designed. --Orlady (talk) 02:22, 3 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Remove from article space. This link and this suggest that the John W. Ross of Davenport was John Wesley Ross, originally of Westfield, MA, who moved to Davenport in 1874 or 1876; whereas this states that the John W. Ross of Grand Forks was born in Germany in 1848 and raised in Wisconsin from 1852. Suggest that it be dropped back into user space until the author can distinguish between the two men and write a separate article for each. At present it's not clear which one should be the primary subject of the article. Choess (talk) 04:35, 3 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
And you had to do a fair amount of original research even to get that much data out of the sources. That's my objection to the existence of the article -- there's almost no sourcing talking directly about them, and they are therefore not verifiable. Database lists pulled by last names are NOT reliable sources.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 04:44, 3 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Delete and userfy for creator. The article clearly conflates two separate individuals per Choess' sources. A quick look at the 1910 United States Census shows an architect named John W. Ross who was born in Massachusetts in 1932 and lives in Davenport, Iowa (with his wife and family, including his son, Albert R. Ross who is also listed as an architect). Confirming this source. On the same date, the 1910 United States Census shows an architect named John W. Ross who was born in Germany in 1848, immigrated in 1952 and lives in Grand Forks, North Dakota (with his wife, Caroline and son, William H. Ross who is listed as a draftsman). Confirming this source. As suggested by Orlady and Choess, separate articles are required so that questions of reliable sourcing and notability can be addressed for each individual separately. — CactusWriter ^(talk) 18:14, 3 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Thanks several of you for providing sources and clarifying the status. The second possibilty turns out to be the case, i.e. that there were two notable architects, both deserving of Wikipedia articles. I added the sources and split the article, encountering some edit conflicts with SarekOfVulcan, and moved the original one to John W. Ross (North Dakota architect). I object now to finding that SarekOfVulcan has userfied the Iowa architect article immediately, while it has sources and notability asserted. I think that is a conflict of interest, he is an involved editor, and I have recently criticized him in the ongoing RFA about him. In fact i came here today because he called attention to this AFD, there. I think he should have let the AFD conclude. In fact it is still open. Seems inappropriate for the proposer to be taking strong action to delete (userify) one of the articles under development during the AFD. --do ncr am 02:52, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You mean the article that repeated and/or contradicted itself every paragraph? "John Wesley Ross was an architect in Davenport, Iowa.... John Ross came to Davenport in 1874.... He was born in Massachusetts in 1932 and lives in Davenport, Iowa.... John Wesley Ross, originally of Westfield, Massachusetts, moved to Davenport in 1874 or 1876." Of course I moved it out of mainspace. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 02:59, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - This has become a major mess. It seems that Doncram split this into two separate articles and redirected John W. Ross to point to the North Dakota architect. Sarek userfied John W. Ross (Iowa architect), as discussed above, and Doncram moved it back to article space. I converted that redirect into a disambiguation page, but I see that there are now lots of backlinks to that page that should point to one or the other. The AfD template appears on John W. Ross (North Dakota architect), but not on the Iowa guy's page. I still !vote that both articles (presumably also the DAB page) should be userfied, since there isn't enough information about either guy (yet) to support a meaningful biographical article. --Orlady (talk) 03:13, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I copied the deletion tag to the Iowa and disambig pages, so it's clear they're both being discussed here, and added the two new articles to the header here. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 03:21, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not a mess at all. There are now two articles, per the 2nd possibility all along. There is also now a dab page, which Orlady created. I don't think the dab page is needed, but it does not cause a problem for it to exist. --do ncr am 03:46, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think the original nomination for deletion no longer applies. I think the 2 separate articles have sources and adequate assertion of notability. Perhaps some commentators who were for deletion could revisit this now. I presume those against deletion of the original article are against deletion of the current two. --do ncr am 04:10, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Revisiting. I still !vote to userfy all. Neither man appears to meet the general notability guideline, in that no substantial independent coverage of either one of them has been located yet. Additionally, it does not appear to me that their claims to notability (i.e., being the first licensed architect in Grand Forks and designing some important buildings in early Davenport) fulfill the additional tests at WP:BIO. The lack of solid biographical information to use as the basis for articles is a symptom of the lack of demonstrated notability. These men can be discussed sufficiently in the articles about their buildings, and the content can be userfied until such time as notability is demonstrated. --Orlady (talk) 16:01, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Userfy - this situation is exactly the sort of thing that happens when semi-researched articles go live. Better that there be nothing in mainspace until it is sorted, than something which is the subject of confusion, doubt and - yes - even notability issues. - Sitush (talk) 16:08, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Revisited -- This seems to be straightening out now. (doncram, please note that the original erroneous creation is one of the reasons WP has rules against synthesis and original research -- cobbling together info from disparate sources leads to this kind of misinformation. Our intuitions are not a substitute for reliable sourcing.) There appears to be enough sources addressing some notability for each architect, although whether or not there is enough for bio pages remains questionable. For example, in the case of the Iowa Ross, it seems that the son is more notable and I could see a merge and redirect created to the son's page. But this issue would be best discussed separately for each. — CactusWriter ^(talk) 17:31, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There are more sources available about the John W. Ross in Davenport, Iowa, including sources cited in the docs already linked, including:

Shank, Wesley. “Iowa’s Historic Architects: A Biographical Dictionary”. University of Iowa Press: Iowa City, Iowa, 1999.
Svendsen, Marlys. “Davenport, Where the River Runs West: A Survey of Davenport History & Architecture”. ND

I've noticed at least the latter one has been used sometimes by some Iowa editors developing out articles on National Register of Historic Places listings in Scott County, Iowa, in Downtown Davenport, in East Davenport, and in West Davenport. There's been substantial wikipedia editing about Davenport and its historic sites going on during the last year, by the way, and that can naturally extend to its historic architects. --do ncr am 13:59, 6 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are on the right track now -- finding the reliable sources. Of course, you can't list those as references right now without you verifying what they say. For me, the current problem is that the Who's Who listing is about his son and the State Historical Society of Iowa document contains only a one sentence comment about him -- which is not enough to build a biography. The thing to do is look at the sources and read what Shank and Svendsen wrote about John W. Ross. (Shank is a professor emeritus of architecture and Svendsen is a paid historical consultant for the state. One may have used the other for their information, in which case only one source is used. OTOH, they may have researched independently, which means you would have two good RS sources.) The first step is to find what the actual authorities say about the person, then use those to create the biography page. — CactusWriter ^(talk) 17:25, 6 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the sources should not be put in, even as "Further reading", if I have not consulted them. But i pretty knew in advance there would be secondary sources like these that would discuss the architects, and I mention them here to convey that to you. In general, architects who have designed multiple buildings listed on the NRHP for their architecture, will often have biographies appearing within one or more of the NRHP nomination documents, and usually there will be secondary sources listed like these ones in the documents' bibliographies. What we've referred to here as "State Historical Society of Iowa" documents are in fact copies of NRHP nomination documents. (I am not sure if these Davenport-library-published ones are entirely complete, and they are not as good as scanned versions showing final signatures and approval stamps and so on, which the NRHP program itself would provide upon request). But they do show that there are multiple secondary sources consulted in the writing of the NRHP nom, which itself is a reliable, secondary source. Hope this gives u some peace of mind. --do ncr am 18:05, 6 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Problem solved, two different architects, two different pages. WP:ARTIST exist for architects, among others, it saying so. Number 4 says: "The person's work either (a) has become a significant monument, (b) has been a substantial part of a significant exhibition, (c) has won significant critical attention, or (d) is represented within the permanent collections of several notable galleries or museums." If the buildings get covered, that counts. Its a significant monument, and has gotten significant attention, books mentioning the areas listing the buildings. Dream Focus 14:13, 6 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Both architects have buildings that are on the National Register of Historic Places proving their works are notable, and both have buildings they made which have their own Wikipedia articles as well. There are references in the article. I'm certain people keep track of who designs notable buildings. Dream Focus 21:58, 6 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I have a copy of the Svendsen book mentioned above. Unfortunately, she devotes only one paragraph to Ross. In it she states it is "believed" he was "trained" in Chicago (not much confidence there). However, unlike John C. Cochrane and Willet Carroll, two other architects who have buildings on the NRHP, he was the first professional architect to come to Davenport and stay. She goes to say he came to the city in 1874 and that he designed the fire station, city hall, the Iowa Soldiers' Orphans' Home, and homes for Davenport's non-Germans. The NRHP nomination form for the Davenport MRA also mentions Ross in a single paragraph (page 22 of the pdf). It says very little is known about him, and that he came to Davenport in 1877. Martha H. Bower's name is on that form and she is listed as a co-author, along with Marlys Svendsen, of Davenport, Where the River Runs West: A Survey of Davenport History & Architecture. Somewhat odd that the date of his arrival in the city is different given Bowers is part of both. I also checked the 1910 Scott County history that contains numerous biographies, and there is no biography of Ross. Again, I find this strange seeing as he was involved with designing several significant buildings in the county. Farragutful (talk) 21:40, 6 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and split, per Dream focus. It's good that the issue was examined. Deletion is however the last resort, and the split is another way of handling it. It's inevitable that there will occasionally be confusions of this sort. Regardless of how little is known about them, anyone who designed building in the National Register should have an article. It's the work that a person does in whatever field that makes them notable, not the routine facts of their biography. (we've usually made an exception for people who are purely society figures who havenever done anything particularly notable in the ordinary way, when there is really good overage in reliable non-tabloid sources--I consider this to follow the principle than that a comprehensive encyclopedic should have information for what people are likely to look there for, which is part of the basis of the concept of notability. The reasons they look is none of our concern. But this is the opposite case. If we can't say much about the life, we can say only what can be sourced, but we can talk about the work. DGG ( talk ) 23:00, 6 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.