Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Holocaust Obfuscation

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 15:26, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Holocaust Obfuscation

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A one-sentence POV ("the attempt, mainly by political forces in the Baltic states", as if there was agreement that such a phenomenon existed) stub on a new term with only one reference, a video on Facebook (hardly considered an RS) with its creator speaking. This could be mentioned in the biography of the term's creator, it doesn't appear to be notable as a stand-alone article. (was requested speedily deleted by Osarius). Tataral (talk) 09:05, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Neologism. As the article states, it is a term recently coined by Dovid Katz of what is essentially his particular POV, and all references to the term seem to be related to works authored by Dovid Katz himself. --Nug (talk) 10:44, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Per nom and Nug. North8000 (talk) 13:11, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete the term is coined by Katz in an article titled "On Three Definitions: Genocide; Holocaust Denial; Holocaust Obfuscation". The phrase is not covered by secondary sources, so it fails notability guideline. --SupernovaExplosion (talk) 16:00, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
~~Comment~~ Keep (as explained below) Well, our short article may be a POV of Dovid Katz, but we should note that his definition and further circumstances of the Holocaust reception in the modern Lithuanian society (etc) were noted by many independent and important media:

Guardian
Jerusalem Post
Irish Times
The Economist
European Voice
Haaretz
BBC
A Litmus test case of modernity: examining modern sensibilities and the public domain in the Baltic States at the turn of the century, Peter Lang, 2006, ISBN 9783034303354, pp 271-272

I consider the information very important and relevant for the history of the Holocaust and also for an encyclopedic project. Is there any article covering the Lithuanian investigations of Holocaust survivors? It could be a good target for a possible merger. And if the article doesn't exist, we can create a relevant section in the article Dovid Katz. But I would disagree with the deletion. --Vejvančický (talk | contribs) 16:26, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Most of these references you linked to are news reports that either report on the opinion of Dovid Katz or are written as opinion pieces authored by Dovid Katz himself, there is no independent secondary source that discusses "Holocaust Obfuscation" as a standalone concept. The book you cite is edited by Peter Lang, but the chapter is written by Dovid Katz.--Nug (talk) 20:04, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  - Actually, Peter Lang is the publisher. It's more or less a vanity publisher, though, they publish basically anything with little review, and have a quite dubious reputation. Tataral (talk) 06:59, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep – ...but possibly rename. The main topic here is the Double Genocide debate. (A Google search for "Double Genocide" -Rwanda returns "About 21,400 results.") Any terminology introduced in this debate is out of necessity a neologism, as the debate was only started in 2008 with the Prague Declaration on European Conscience and Communism. At the moment Wikipedia has tons of articles presenting one POV in this debate, the icing on the cake is the template "Prague Process" which in itself is an attempt to win the argument by presenting the debate in a POV context with a POV title.

Although the phrase "Holocaust obfuscation" is mostly used by Dovid Katz the concept exists by other names, including "Double genocide" and "Red equals Brown." Others using these terms include Efraim Zuroff. The most notable "anti-Prague" declaration is the Seventy Years Declaration.

I have told User:Hypatea (the creator of the stub) and User:Spitfire3000 to get their act together and present the anti-Prague POV somewhere. This may not have been the best title to start with, but as it stands, this is what we have. I created a redirect from Holocaust obfuscation (no capitals) a half a year ago. It is high time it redirects to somewhere. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 16:36, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. – The strongest argument for keep under the present title is the huge number of high quality sources repeating or presenting Katz's opinion. The fact that Katz said "obfuscation" is notable in itself! -- Petri Krohn (talk) 16:41, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree completely with the last part of your comment. The article could be renamed, expanded or refocused to grasp the problem in a broader context, but the information should be kept. I changed my vote to 'keep'. --Vejvančický (talk | contribs) 17:33, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

P.P.S. – I started working on a main article at User:Petri Krohn/Double Genocide debate. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 20:24, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Seems to me that your user space creation is a POV fork of Prague Declaration on European Conscience and Communism and Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin and could easily be merged into the respective articles. The term "debate" generally means both sides are presented and discussed, but as it stands it seems to only be critical of those two topics, hence it is a POV fork. As a general note, there may be a possible element of WP:ADVOCACY if not WP:COI in this topic area, so we must tread carefully. --Nug (talk) 20:39, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

- Speedy close and redirect to Double Genocide debate#Holocaust obfuscation. I have created a new article in Double Genocide debate. This topic should be redirected to that page. There is no point in trying to improve on the current article, even if the topic was notable in itself. There just does not seem to be the manpower available and I am not going to waste any more time on it. There is also the option of defining the concept in Holocaust denial. I believe inclusion there would be supported by reliable sources. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:38, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete as a Non-Notable Neologism. Actually, come to think of it, a redirection to the phrase's creator, Dovid Katz, would be another good result — maybe the best one. Carrite (talk) 17:25, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Merge (with redirect) to Prague Declaration on European Conscience and Communism as this is a pure and simple response/criticism to this declaration and has no significant notability outside of it (it may in the future, but it doesn't now). The above proposed solution to a (to be created) article of Double Genocide Debate doesn't really work either, as that, again, is a direct response to Prague Declaration on European Conscience and Communism and can easily be dealt with there until such time (if it occurs) that it gains wider notability or influence. Ravendrop 21:05, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The "proposal to merge with Dovid Katz" appeared within seconds of the appearance of the new stub. It is either an automated process or someone is patrolling a little too heavily. The term is important as a description in newer Holocaust literature and needs to be explained carefully. Deleting it as a separate entry would do a disservice to wikipedia readers who expect impartial information and easy access to information, including newer developments in any given field. The term crops up in other sources and can be expanded to include those references by other more knowledgable editors. "Specifically in the Baltic states" and "political forces" are not POV terms, in any event. The term is meant to describe a political ideological movement being spearheaded by certain forces, mainly in Europe, mainly in Eastern Europe, and notably in the Baltic states. "Obfuscation" arguably could be considered a pejorative in certain contexts, but Katz is describing a new phenomenon which is neither Holocaust denial nor Holocaust affirmation. It needs to stay, it needs expansion. Hypatea (talk) 21:51, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:36, 2 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: It looks to me as if the new article on Double Genocide theory is a fairly unhistorical account of what could properly be titled the Holocaust uniqueness debate. The new article only presents Katz' POV and ignores all previous debate which is extensive. See Talk:Double Genocide theory for a more in depth comment. Tataral (talk) 06:13, 2 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
delete as a neologism. Estlandia (dialogue) 11:53, 2 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
~~Keep~~Delete per the sources presented by Nug. Note that per WP:NEO articles are not deleted on the basis of being neologisms, but being unsourced, non-notable ones. A412 (Talk * C) 01:14, 3 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Wikipedia policy is clear on this, per WP:NOTNEO: "Articles on neologisms are commonly deleted"; the policy goes on to state that in order to be kept the term itself must be the subject in independent secondary sources, not just used in newspaper opinion pieces as the presented sources show. --Nug (talk) 04:12, 3 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  - Okay then. A412 (Talk * C) 05:41, 3 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    - @Nug:The term "Holocaust Obfuscation" is a valid and significant part of the "Double Genocide discussion" or "theory", it is an unquestionable fact supported by many reliable sources. Do you (and others !voting to 'delete') really want to delete the explanation from Wikipedia completely? Why should Wikipedia suppress the information? We are not judges or censors deciding what is appropriate for our readers and what is not. I have a strange feeling that political opinions and standpoints in this discussion predominate over the encyclopedic effort to present neutral and relevant facts. I may be mistaken, it is just my opinion. Dovid_Katz#Double_Genocide_debate is the most appropriate target for redirect at the moment. --Vejvančický (talk | contribs) 08:27, 3 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      - If it's a new theory (actually more like name calling against opponents) mostly used by one person, it's not notable as a stand-alone article. It could be mentioned in a different article, for example the biography of the term's creator. And please explain how exactly two sentences and not a single reliable source (the opinion piece in the NYT does not mention the term "Holocaust Obfuscation") make an article. The only source cited for the existence of this alleged phenomenon is the personal blog of the term's creator. Tataral (talk) 08:41, 3 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        At an AfD, we should discuss potential of a topic, not just current state. I brought some good sources here (see above) and now I added the most important ones to the article. The theory is not so new, the sources discuss the term continuously (at least) from 2006. --Vejvančický (talk | contribs) 11:57, 3 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        Wikipedia is not a WP:CRYSTALBALL. The sources you added, the first is authored by Dovid Katz himself and the second and third quote Dovid Katz. These are not secondary sources about the term, they only use the term, hence there is no basis for keeping this neologism. --Nug (talk) 23:40, 3 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        I'm not talking about keeping the article separately. Dovid_Katz#Double_Genocide_debate is a good and eligible target for a redirect. Definitely better than deletion. --Vejvančický (talk | contribs) 07:13, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        As I said when I nominated this page for deletion: "This could be mentioned in the biography of the term's creator." I'm happy to see we agree on that. In any case, this sub stub is so short, so there's really nothing to merge, the Katz article already has a more detailed description of this. Tataral (talk) 07:34, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete The underlying reality may exist in some form, but I think it would be hard to say that this is really a distinct concept, and it certainly is not yet an accepted one under this terminology. DGG ( talk ) 08:45, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete or redirect to Holocuast denial. The article is tagged for merger with David Katz, who allegedly conined the neologism: that hardly seems appropriate to me. Peterkingiron (talk) 20:28, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.