Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Giannis–Harden rivalry

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Consensus of established editors below exists to delete the article. Daniel (talk) 11:58, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Giannis–Harden rivalry

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This article, while including many sources, is a product of original research. The extent of this "rivalry" is trivial and most sources have nothing to do with this alleged "rivalry". Few reliable sources have discussed the "rivalry" in detail. User:Namiba 19:34, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Basketball-related deletion discussions. User:Namiba 19:34, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I can show you several sources that specifically call it a "Giannis and Harden rivalry", would that be enough to support that there is a rivalry? MasterMatt12 (talk) 19:36, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Or called a fued instead of a rivalry. MasterMatt12 (talk) 19:37, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

https://behindthebuckpass.com/2021/06/04/giannis-antetokounmpo-rivalry-james-harden/

https://www.sportskeeda.com/basketball/rumor-nba-trade-rumors-a-complete-history-feud-james-harden-potential-teammate-giannis-antetokounmpo

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbareturn29560382/the-evolution-james-harden-giannis-antetokounmpo-feud

https://www.complex.com/sports/james-harden-giannis-antetokounmpo-feud-timeline

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/giannis-vs-harden-a-budding-personal-rivalry-the-mismatch/id1109271715?i=1000466989580

https://www.si.com/nba/bucks/old-school/revisiting-the-giannis-antetokounmpo-james-harden-rivalry

https://localtoday.news/pa/revisiting-the-rivalry-between-giannis-antetokounmpo-and-james-harden-123735.html

All these sources call it either a fued, or a rivalry, and there is even a podcast about specifically their rivalry. MasterMatt12 (talk) 19:42, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: New York and Wisconsin. Skynxnex (talk) 19:37, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I should add that this "feud" is mostly just celebrity gossip, thus fitting under WP:NOTNEWS.--User:Namiba 19:42, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's not just gossip, there have been many interviews and interactions between the two players. And if this is considered gossip then we should also delete Ronaldo-Messi rivalry because there is also just mostly news reports and social media starting a rivalry between the players because of their skill levels. MasterMatt12 (talk) 19:45, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Delete It was encouraged by social media, it's not really a thing or had much of an impact, I don't see much for sourcing about the feud. Lots about each player, but nothing about this. Oaktree b (talk) 22:02, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Is there anything I can do to make sure it does not get deleted? MasterMatt12 (talk) 22:35, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Also, it is encouraged by social media, but is mostly because of their interactions in-person, and I don't see the issue of it being encouraged on social media if it is also encouraged between the two players. And I have a lot of sources for the fued in the relationship section. MasterMatt12 (talk) 22:43, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Also the relationship part talking about their fued has 19 sources. MasterMatt12 (talk) 01:03, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Oaktree b: MasterMatt12 (talk) 19:31, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete WP:NOTNEWS, don’t believe that this social media driven “rivalry” merits its own article. While using reliable sources, I believe the subject fails WP:NBIO Equine-man (talk) 07:13, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It is not just social media driven, it is also driven because of the interactions in-person, and because of that then creates a lot of media and reliable sources. MasterMatt12 (talk) 12:34, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Also, James Harden and Giannis are VERY notable people, so I don't see how it could fail notable people, that doesn't make much seense. MasterMatt12 (talk) 12:35, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You misread. I said the subject. Should have said “event” probably. But I think @Bagumba probably used the more accurate description. Equine-man (talk) 21:53, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Equine-man MasterMatt12 (talk) 19:32, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep Easily passes WP:GNG as this rivalry has been discussed in detail in multiple reliable sources that are independent of the subject and over a period of several years, including ESPN (The evolution of the James Harden-Giannis Antetokounmpo feud), Sports Illustrated (Revisiting the Giannis Antetokounmpo-James Harden rivalry), The Ringer (‘The Mismatch’: Giannis vs. Harden, a Budding Personal Rivalry), GQ (James Harden and Giannis Antetokounmpo: A Timeline of Their Feud) and Complex (James Harden and Giannis Antetokounmpo: A Timeline of Their Feud). These sources do not go against WP:NOTNEWS as they are not original reporting, routine or gossip. I also fail to see how this article fails WP:NBIO. Alvaldi (talk) 09:44, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Here are some more sources that speak of the rivalry/feud: New York Post (James Harden escalates All-Star feud with Giannis Antetokounmpo]), Ballers.ph (Beard vs. Freak: A timeline of the growing rivalry between James Harden and Giannis Antetokounmpo), Larry Brown Sports (James Harden has no interest in answering Giannis Antetokounmpo question), Heavy.com (Old Clip of James Harden Ripping Giannis Emerges Before Game 1), USA Today (James Harden offers scathing critique of Giannis Antetokounmpo's game: 'Takes no skill at all), San Francisco Chronicle (James Harden on guarding Giannis Antetokounmpo: 'Next question') and even Golf Digest (James Harden vs. Giannis could be the NBA's Koepka-DeChambeau, and it's all about pace of play). Alvaldi (talk) 10:01, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and you can see all the sources for just feud, as a probably have at least 30. That alone should make this topic notable enough and worthy of an article, and I addressed all the issues above by people who supported delete. MasterMatt12 (talk) 12:33, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete WP:NOTDIARY seems relevant here:
Even when an individual is notable, not all events they are involved in are. For example, news reporting about celebrities and sports figures can be very frequent and cover a lot of trivia, but using all these sources would lead to overly detailed articles that look like a diary.
If we look past the article's WP:REFBOMB and WP:OR of side-by-side comparisons, there's only the gossip from sources concentrated from the 2019–20 season. Some rivalries like Shaq–Kobe feud have a lasting effect; this one is not currently one of them.—Bagumba (talk) 14:25, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It's not just gossip, they had many interactions and interviews together, and if it got this much media attention then it should be an article. MasterMatt12 (talk) 14:27, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

And the article is not at all overly-detailed, you can see in the feud section the amount of sources and info in there. MasterMatt12 (talk) 14:28, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

And it does have a lasting effect, the 2019 MVP. MasterMatt12 (talk) 16:19, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Also, are you saying that it has no original research and that the refbombs are a good thing? Or that it does have original research and the refbombs are a bad thing? MasterMatt12 (talk) 18:31, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Bagumba: MasterMatt12 (talk) 18:31, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete almost exactly per User:Bagumba. The bulk of this article is simply unencyclopedic gossip. The rivalry between these two players could potentially have a lasting impact, but that is currently not the case and would likely be years down the road if it were to happen at all. And no amount of WP:BLUDGEONing by User:MasterMatt12 will change that. Frank Anchor 20:39, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm just trying to save my article. MasterMatt12 (talk) 20:40, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Since I spent a long time on it, I do apologize if I am bludgeoning, since I am somewhat desperate to save my article and argue my case of why it should be kept. MasterMatt12 (talk) 20:49, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Would it be possible to perhaps merge this with another article, since it is most likely going to get deleted? MasterMatt12 (talk) 22:29, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per Bagumba's reasoning. Also the 2019 MVP is not a lasting effect of the feud, I have serious doubts that the MVP voters took the two players feuding into account when casting their votes. Best, GPL93 (talk) 15:06, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. This is an article for a sports magazine, not an encyclopedia, which requires WP:RS. If a bunch of sports magazines took it up on their own, however, it might pass the bar for WP:SIGCOV.Jacona (talk) 11:37, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It has coverage from Bleacher Report, ESPN, CBS Sports, The Athletic, FOX Sports, Washington Post, and almost all of these sources talked about in detail the topic several times throughout 2019-22. MasterMatt12 (Talk to me) (Cool user page) 14:58, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.