Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fritter roll

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to Fritter#United Kingdom. First off, I see there are some concerns about the nature of the deletion nomination, but little detail on what these concerns are and a look at the page history or elsewhere does not give clarity. There are two plain keep arguments, one of which has been contested on the grounds that the sources mentioned are not actually about the topic (Fritter roll) and two which do not offer much beyond "it's notable". One delete argument was struck for being socky, the other is conditional on there not being any reliable sources. Finally there is a suggestion that the topic Roll and Fritter may be the correct topic but there is little evidence either pro or con notability. Finally, there are plenty of merge arguments pointing to Fritter#United Kingdom and to reliable sources which are not necessarily mentioned in article. Per the analysis it seems like the strength of argument favours a merge in this case and so does the headcount, so merge it is. Selective merge only involving the material supported by WP:RS that is, not just any content. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 18:49, 3 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Fritter roll

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Fritter roll (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Until today this was PRODed and entirely uncited. Some additional material was added today and purported refs given but all fail verification. I'm unconvinced this is commonplace as an entity, distinctively Scottish or notable. Mutt Lunker (talk) 20:24, 20 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep or redirect to Fritter The nominator was mistaken about all of the items failing verification.
  1. The NY Times ref (caption of the photo) in the very first NY Times reference Haggis fritters in Edinburgh.
  2. And the BBC reference: the proprietor stuffed the fritters with Peas.
  3. Scotland.org and The Sun references I erased. It seemed from these references and from basic research that the most common fritters in Scotland were the crispy deep fired potato fritter. However I erased it rather than defend it.
The subject should be redirected or kept based upon the references. I will not spend too much more time on the Fritters, however WP:NEXIST Fritters do not appear to be uniquely Scottish, however it appears from the research that fritters are served in a majority of establishments in Scotland. Lightburst (talk) 21:03, 20 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 21:04, 20 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Scotland-related deletion discussions. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 21:04, 20 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the Article Rescue Squadron's list of content for rescue consideration. Lightburst (talk) 19:25, 27 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The article is about a bread roll containing a potato fritter. These sources are not about potato fritters nor bread rolls, let alone in combination. Mutt Lunker (talk) 21:54, 20 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes...That is exactly what is pictured here in the NY Times reference. Please remove your incorrect failed verification tag after you verify. There are variations of Fritter Rolls. Just as there are variations of Hot pockets. Traditionally a potato is used as the filler, and other times, as the references show...Peas, or haggis. Here in the US the fritter traditionally is just fried dough. Lightburst (talk) 22:19, 20 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You are claiming that a picture captioned "Haggis fritters at the Orchard restaurant in Edinburgh." that manifestly has no bread roll in it is in fact "a bread roll containing a potato fritter". Ok, let's see if anyone is convinced of that... As to why you go on to supplement this with a list of yet more things that are not a bread roll containing a potato fritter, I am at a loss. Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:24, 20 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'd be content with a merge, if there actually is verifiable content therein. One source is a blog, so doubtful if a WP:RS; regarding the other source, I'm unsure whether it is a RS or not but I have my doubts and there are several factual errors in the piece. Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:14, 24 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
On the basis that one of the two sources may possibly consitute a WP:RS in Wikipedia terms (factual errors therein aside), as nominator, I'd now be satisfied to change from advocating delete to Merge to Fritter#United Kingdom, but only of the material based on this source - not that based on the blog. Mutt Lunker (talk) 19:25, 27 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I was on PROD patrol and saw areas to improve this article - I did some research and added some references to this stub. Also created a category for the readability. The nominator immediately tagged all of my refs "failed verification". I went to the nom's talk page and explained why the "failed verification" tags were incorrect. By the time I was done typing the nom had an AfD slapped on the article. I went to the article and did clean up of the referenced material - verified that information was cited correctly, removed the "failed verification" tags. But... the nominator put the "failed verification" tags back in based upon the nom's evident desire to delete the article. I suggest that it is a conflict of interest for a nominator to delete, tag, and revert during this deletion process. This is two hours of my Sunday that I will never get back. Lightburst (talk) 22:14, 20 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sunday's the next one. Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:45, 20 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 00:31, 27 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep because now I want a fritter roll (also due to procedural abnormalities which DQ this nomination). Lightburst, thank you for your dedication, it matters more that you care about the world than that you prevail against stinky behavior. The two hours you spent may hone your concentration skills against future trials.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 02:08, 27 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Not WP:VOTE, unless substantiation of the innuendo of “procedural abnormalities” is forthcoming.

I’d dearly like my two hours (and counting) back too please, vainly trying to explain the self-evidently off-topic nature of the additional material being dumped into the article. This waste of everyone’s time was compounded by a spurious submission to the admin noticeboard (not upheld). Now the addition of WP:JUSTAVOTE, coupled with encouragement of the first editor's imperviousness to the questioning of their additions. These indicate neither “dedication” nor “care about the world”; take a sniff closer to home. Mutt Lunker (talk) 19:19, 27 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Somewhat kneejerk. Mutt Lunker (talk) 19:31, 27 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Mutt LunkerI do hope you will allow edits on the article. I took a long break from Fritter roll's hoping that the temperature would be lowered with the passage of time. At the time, you had deleted nearly all of my attempts to edit the article (editing that you refer to as "dumping"). I am saddened to see that you continue to WP:OWN the article, and the temperature does not seem to have been lowered. Maybe the article can be saved if you will now allow other editors to improve it. Lightburst (talk) 19:46, 27 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
If they can find sources which, contrary to the bulk of yours, actually address the subject, I'd be delighted. Containing the term "fritter roll" therein, if not necessarily sufficient, would be a minimum starting point. The material you added based on sources which do not fulfil this, I have removed; the material based on the two sources which do fulfil this, I have not removed, even though one is a blog and thus not a WP:RS, so should really have been removed. Mutt Lunker (talk) 20:13, 27 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I see you've attempted to post but were having difficulties with a mobile device, so I'll quote it here in order to respond: "Thanks. Yes I said it was a blog in edit summary. Placeholder."
Yes, I am aware that you did but notifying us of that you have used a source which is "largely not acceptable" does not thus allow it. See WP:BLOG. Mutt Lunker (talk) 21:05, 27 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Mutt, It is still a bit too hot in here for me to edit this. I will exit and unwatch and let others see if they want to try to edit in this environment. Lightburst (talk) 21:19, 27 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That's your choice but there's nothing to stop you, should you unearth material that is both pertinent and reliably-sourced. Mutt Lunker (talk) 21:27, 27 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - A search did not reveal sufficient RS coverage to establish notability. Content could potentially be merged with Fritter#United Kingdom if more reliable sources can be found. Many of the suggested sources are actually about pea fritters, haggis fritters, etc. and do not actually mention the fritter roll or suggest that they are variations. –dlthewave ☎ 21:56, 27 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge to fritter. I went carefully through the page history, and looked at every source that has ever been cited on the page. The sources that are no longer there do not actually include anything about fritter rolls, just assorted mentions of fritters in general. The two sources cited on the page as of when I write this comment ([1]) are web postings that appear to be blog-like (one of the two is explicitly someone's blog), and they are suspiciously similar to each other, such that one of them may have been written off of the other. I also did searches via the various Google sub-sites, and what keeps coming back is "...fritter. Roll...". There is just enough reliable sourcing to say that the thing exists, but not enough to satisfy WP:GNG. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:00, 27 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge to fritter. I find places like this [2] where they show something called a "Finest bubble and squeak fritter" and then in the survey poll call the same product "Tesco Finest bubble and squeak fritter roll". Various other places describe similar things, sometimes calling it a roll and sometimes not. There are many different types of fritters. Not a lot in the article right now to justify its own article. I say merge it to Fritter. Dream Focus 22:59, 27 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
To clarify, the fritter and the roll are distinct items in combination. The latter is a bread roll (in all likelihood, a morning roll), containing the former. No mention of the bread roll and it's not a fritter roll, it's just a fritter, so not the subject of this article: the combination. There are vanishingly few mentions of the combination. Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:40, 27 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
...and the Tesco item appears to be a 2017 inclusion in their sandwich range; from the picture and description, in a bread roll. The full title is "Finest bubble and squeak fritter with spiced red cabbage roll", so a "(list of contents) (bread) roll (sandwich)". It's also mentioned here. Not notable, certainly not independently. Mutt Lunker (talk) 00:07, 28 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

*Delete Cuntfinger (talk) 00:38, 28 July 2019 (UTC) user has been blocked by Bbb23 for being a sockpuppet.[reply]

That's WP:JUSTAVOTE. Mutt Lunker (talk) 01:11, 28 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm getting the sense that the concept of a bread roll may be something alien to Americans. Is that the case? A fritter and a bread roll in Scottish and wider British parlance are very much not the same thing and this article's subject, non-notable as it is, is not a single entity called a fritter roll but a combination of two things, the former placed inside the latter. I'm bemused at how difficult a concept this seems to be to many contributors here. Mutt Lunker (talk) 01:27, 28 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
And another source of confusion may be that an American fritter would seem to be largely dough, whereas in Scotland, wider Britain and large parts of the world outside the US it is a variety of battered items, in this case potato. Mutt Lunker (talk)
  • Merge very sparingly to Fritter#United Kingdom, with information from the one non-blog source. The term "fritter roll" refers to one, very specific, combination of foods, thus sources talking about fritters in general are not valid in establishing independent notability for this very specific variation. Rorshacma (talk) 16:29, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge to Fritter#United Kingdom seems the neatest arrangement of content. Bondegezou (talk) 13:47, 1 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • comments: Believe it or not I have not been thinking about fritter rolls at all. Today on ARS someone posted another food item and used the terminology "chip barm" That caused me to reflect on the fate of the fritter...The correct name for this article should be "Roll and Fritter". When I used the search "Glasgow roll and fritter" I came up with numerous establishments and reviews for this food item. Not WP:RS but nonetheless. It exists.
  1. Buzzfeed
  2. Yelp review
  3. Glasgow live
  4. Sbran
  5. Reddit/Twitter (photo of the menu)
  6. Trip advisor
  7. Restaurant menu
  8. The Golden Fry
  9. Amore Glasgow
  10. Hot food
So if the article is retained it should be renamed Roll and Fritter. Lightburst (talk) 14:37, 2 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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