Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fermor (Russian nobility)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. Neither of the two Keep views successfully countered the deficiency in sourcing. Owen× ☎ 17:35, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fermor (Russian nobility) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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Nonnotable RUssuan family tagged since 2019. BAsically unreferenced. - Altenmann >talk 19:42, 14 June 2024 (UTC) -- Update: The article creator now added many references, but none of them speaks about family, only about individual members. - Altenmann >talk 17:00, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Royalty and nobility and Russia. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 20:01, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:04, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:37, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong Keep Both named individuals of the Fermor family have high military ranks: William Fermor, General in Chief with the notable act of occupying Berlin plus Governor of Smolensk and Pavel Fermor, first principal of the Alexander Military Law Academy. William Fermor is referenced in the SSNE database of the University of St Andrews^[1] as Commander in chief of Russian forces during the 7 year war. Axisstroke (talk) 09:56, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Notability of some persons has nothing to do with the notability of the family. WP:NOTINHERITED - Altenmann >talk 15:27, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    The family bore arms of count of the Holy Roman Empire, your argument is pretty thin. Axisstroke (talk) 20:16, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Evidence? Anyway, In Wikipedia a notability of a subject, namely "Fermor (Russian nobility)" is judged from the presence of reliable sources describing the subject (namely "Fermor (Russian nobility)") in reasonable detail. Please see WP:NOTABILITY, WP:RS WP:CITE. - Altenmann >talk 20:42, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    The SSNE entry 3876 referenced above lists it. Axisstroke (talk) 05:35, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    SSNE 3876 says not a word about Russian family.- Altenmann >talk 16:12, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    SSNE 3876 references count Wiliam Fermor, the most prominent member of this noble Russian family. Axisstroke (talk) 19:33, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    For the fourth time, I don't see any references about "noble Russian family" to assert its notability for English Wikipedia. - Altenmann >talk 20:02, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    " Governor General of Eastern Prussia and Commander in chief of Russian forces", how can that not be more russian?!?

    A family is the sum of its members of which there are several notable members.

    Repeating nonsensical stuff 4 or 5 times does not prove your point.

    The article subject is a Strong Keep as stated early on. Axisstroke (talk) 10:13, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Several persons with the same surname does not prove they constitute a family notable per Wikipedia requirements.

    You keep ignoring my request to provide reliable sources describing the subject (namely "Fermor (Russian nobility)") in reasonable detail. I find it really strange to call wikipedia policies "nonsensical stuff". - Altenmann >talk 17:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    The family has among its members several military leaders, one of the richest female entrepeneurs and has an high noble title. You seem not to have looked up the russian sources. WP:IDONTLIKEIT seems your only argument. Also please stop removing relevant material. Axisstroke (talk) 19:54, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Sorry, I think I understood where the misunderstanding comes from. Please provide sources about the subject (namely "Fermor (Russian nobility)") rather than about individual members. In English Wikipedia Notability is not inherited. - Altenmann >talk 20:44, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    While the individual sources already give enough weight to its individual members of the family added relevant sources. Axisstroke (talk) 05:18, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Final relist.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CycloneYoris ^talk! 07:37, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Absent sources demonstrating notability for the family itself, this needs to be deleted. WP:NOTINHERITED goes both ways—a person does not become notable simply by belonging to a notable family, and likewise a family does not become notable simply by having notable members. TompaDompa (talk) 22:33, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Not true and easily fixed from russian literature. Axisstroke (talk) 05:18, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Several entries and notable references to the Fermor family added. Axisstroke (talk) 08:39, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  The Ukrainian language article mentions two presidents of the Duma of the same noble family. Unfortunately this probable claim/titles is written without direct reference. Axisstroke (talk) 12:20, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Thanks to the ukraine entry found a historical database entry of one Duma depute of the family, so added that too. Thank you for reevaluating on the now quite extensive list of important positions of the family Fermor. Axisstroke (talk) 14:36, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete Famous members do not make a family notable. See WP:NINI and WP:BIOFAMILY — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vorann Gencov (talk • contribs) 19:42, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  The rules that you cite apply for single members of a famous family. Here we discuss a renowned family with famous members and several references. Axisstroke (talk) 05:41, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Update the noble Russian family Count Fermor is displayed in beautiful portraits in the State Russian museum: daughter and son of General Wiliam Fermor (see gallery of the entry). The daughter Sarah Eleanore Fermor of General Wiliam Fermor is considered to be Ivan Vishnyakov most beautiful portraits. The display of this family portraits already underlines the notability of the russian Fermor family.

Members of the noble family have several historic reference: An aide du camp of the Polish Governor got shot by revolutionists in 1906 during the Revolution in the Kingdom of Poland (1905–1907), a count donated a Mammoth to the National Museum of Natural History, France^[1] and held important Russian military and civil position. The count title gives enough notability to deserve the article. Moreover the family is referenced in several Russian genealogy books.

Furthermore US press considers Count Fermor to be "a member of one of the most aristocratic Russian families"^[2] and a a "descendant of the first Russian dynasty".

sidenote: In contrast to false User:Altenmann claims the history of the article in question shows well that I am not the creator of it, just merely improving it now and pointing out the importance of the Fermor (Russian nobility). Axisstroke (talk) 17:46, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"descendant of the first Russian dynasty" and "one of the most aristocratic Russian families" are nonsense newspaper hype that cannot be taken seriously as proof of notability. - Altenmann >talk 18:31, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hype is usual in US newspaper. Nevertheless good hype based on that family members gave their life for the Russia Empire. Axisstroke (talk) 15:47, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Strong keep stands. (And no this is not a second vote just a reiteration based on the updated article on the noble Counts Fermor).

Axisstroke (talk) 19:09, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Weak keep. More sources would still be needed for a more definite statement. Updated 10:08, 12 July 2024 (UTC) Delete unless references about the family, not individual members, are found. Are there no family entries in any Russian-language encyclopedias, or is it just that this family is not covered? Jähmefyysikko (talk) 07:40, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  The counts of Fermor are covered in the first three references. Why do you claim they are not covered?

  Moreover in the update above is indicated that the family is covered by special portraits in the Russian State museum: Daughter and Son of the General Count Fermor. How can the son and daughter not count as family members?

  How does the grand daughter who was one of the richest female entrepreneurs not count as family member? The claims by the initiator of the delete request that the Counts are not covered is not true.

  Moreover you seem to ignore the visit of the ambassador of Bismarck, which stayed at the family home in St Petersburg, when he was German Ambassador in Russia and got Russian lessons by the family of the counts of Fermor. Axisstroke (talk) 08:19, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Maybe the confusion stems that the German nobility title given to General Wiliam Fermor got recognized by the Russian emperor directly afterwards. So it is a German title for a Russian family in the Russian Empire (including baltic states). Axisstroke (talk) 08:48, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  What are the exact pages in e.g. Baltisches Wappenbuch? I also don't see an entry for Fermor family in Titled nobility of Europe. Please provide quotes if the Google Books snippet search is not accurate. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 09:06, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Added google books links for the first references to help to clarify. The pages to the Reichsgraf title are on page 32^[3] "Reichs Graf 12. 6.1758" and on page 37 of the additional text to the book^[4] "1759 Graf Fermor, Wilhelm Senateur zu Nitau, Mahrzen, Muehlgraben" (Baltic property of the family).

  First of all the title of the page is "Fermor (Russian nobility)". The title given by Maria Theresia to General Wiliam Fermor is Reichsgraf as referenced. Reichsgraf is a high noble title so notability of the nobility is given. The title is hereditary hence any descendant got it.

  Second of all the portraits of his son and daughter are high class portraits by one of the best painter. At the time this was not done for peasants and the Russian state museum portraits underline the notability of the family. I am quite puzzled why this portraits would not count in the referenced notability of the Count Fermor's.

  Third of all the family is referenced in the two other secondary books. Axisstroke (talk) 15:31, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  The titled nobility book picks up the female Fermor descendant line, see page 1396 where Count Fermor becomes hereditary Count Stenbock Fermor. Axisstroke (talk) 15:50, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  To clarify what kind of entries are sought, here's an example from Swedish biographical dictionary for House of Bjälbo: https://sok.riksarkivet.se/sbl/mobil/Artikel/14301 That entry discusses the family itself, not only the individuals. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 09:14, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  "General Fermor, whose origin is unknown to me, signalized himself in the Seven Years' war, and was created Count in the year 1788, June 12th. His name passed to a branch of the Counts of Stenbock, an illoustrous family in the records of Sweden"^[5]

  Summarizing the son (portrait 2) of the General has no known descendants, his daughter Sarah (portrait 3) marries a count Stenbock and their son (grand-son of the General) becomes count Stenbock Fermor. Axisstroke (talk) 05:40, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  The above, and this reference gives information about the Stenbock-Fermor line at least. Here's a somewhat more substantial reference contributing to notability of the Fermor name: Российская родословная книга, Том 2 (p. 259, or search for Fermor) The translated and annotated version currently present in the article does not contain as much information. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 07:12, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Indeed this is a great reference and information which is not present in any either language [ru, uk] Fermor entry. I will add shortly. Thank you. Axisstroke (talk) 07:48, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Morfill 1902: A history of Russia, from the birth of Peter the Great to Nicholas II mentions that William Fermor was of English extraction, and connected with the same family which claimed the famous Arabella, the heroine of the "Rape of the Lock. This is such a brief mention that I don't consider it contributing to notability (which I still find borderline) but may nevertheless be useful. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 10:05, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Right there is also a funny conspiracy theory involving a count Steinbock Fermor plotting the Death of Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky, see section "Suicide ordered by "court of honor". I won't include these speculations. Axisstroke (talk) 15:15, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Haven't yet included the full info from the russian book, will do over next days. Axisstroke (talk) 15:16, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per WP:TNT. I don’t see how any other editor can’t see the numerous issues with this page and think that it’s anything more than a very poorly translated and formatted article. If this family were really famous, they would have many more sources, and at least some editors would fix it. Right now, this is looking like many hours of editing. Even assuming, arguendo, that this passes barely, it’s a hot mess, as the kids say. Sorry. Bearian (talk) 11:43, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  The first four and the sixth references in the intro show the relevance of the family. There were none when this procedure started. The references on the Fermor nobility are in German, Russian and English, so if there is any doubt on them that be good to hear. At this point as referenced article it is on the initiator or endorser to show that the references would not bear notability.

  Besides the nuclear option, any constructive advice. Axisstroke (talk) 14:19, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Reworded intro and fixed to have the first five important references as the relevant ones. Axisstroke (talk) 15:09, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  There are no references that discuss the family in reasonable depth, only mention it or describe its members. - Altenmann >talk 01:23, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Not true: The coat of arms is for the family as it's hereditary title. The book references speak about both the family and it's individuals, as a family is the sum of it's members. The Ivan Vishnyakov portraits are quite notable, plus there are both Russian and Ukraine entries of the Fermor nobility. Axisstroke (talk) 06:04, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  The portraits contribute nothing towards notability. They do not illustrate many generations of family, it's just William Fermor's children. Wikipedia entries also do not count since they are not considered reliable. Coat of arms is something to be discussed in the article, but notability is determined from textual material. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 06:18, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I understand that each Wikipedia has it's own rules. Nevertheless if the family would not have Russian and Ukranian entries that would point to a lack of notability. Axisstroke (talk) 08:54, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.