Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Exodus of Ethnic Macedonians from Greece

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to Political refugees of the Greek Civil War and/or another appropriate preexisting article. For what I hope are obvious reasons, I've discounted all opinions who appear to be primarily motivated by the editor's ethnic or national background. What remains is the consensus opinion enunciated by Fut. Perf., Stifle and others that this appears to be a content fork and should be merged with the preexisting relevant article(s) to the extent that consensus allows.  Sandstein  21:14, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Exodus of Ethnic Macedonians from Greece

Exodus of Ethnic Macedonians from Greece (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

WP:POVFORK. This is User:PMK1's second attempt to create a POV fork after Aegean Macedonians. This latest one is a POV version of two pre-existing articles: Political refugees of the Greek Civil War and Child refugees of the Greek Civil War. It is a POV fork since it is using all facts and figures referring to all people affected in general (mainly Greeks) as if they refer solely to ethnic Macedonian people. Please see talk page for further info Avg (talk) 20:36, 29 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • delete - obvious POV fork. The subject could easily be treated in the other two articles. The current one only suits one POV and is there to equal Communists to ethnic Macedonians and present all that left the country in the period as ethnic Macedonians again, which is obviously not the case. Basically, it's the same article as the Child Refugees, only that it treats the subject in a POVish and ORish way. --Laveol T 21:01, 29 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, this article has been unfairly nominated by a user who has had very little if any input on the actual content on the article either on the talk page or by making a constructive edit. Not a POV fork of either Child refugees of the Greek Civil War or the Aegean Macedonians article. Claims that i removed the information from Child refugees of the Greek Civil War are wrong, i clearly created that page on the 11,October 2008, see here. This article has been rejected by the majority of Greek users as they deny that an ethnic macedonian minority exists in that country or ever existed, this is contrary to popular belief and historial events. Claims of using fraudulent sources, were investigated by User:Crossthets, and resolved here. Claims of ethnic cleansing, genocide etc. have not been brought up in the article but have been brought up by people wishing to remove the article. Claims presenting only the "SLAVOMACEDONIAN", "FYROM", "SKOPJAN", "COMMUNIST" POV's are untrue, source used in the text are numerous and very few of them originate from Ethnic Macedonian/Communist sources. This seems to be a WP:IDONTLIKEIT nomination, for a well referenced, relevant and encyclopedic article by a group of editors not wishing to contribute to the article. Not enough substantial evidence to have it deleted, therefore it must be kept. PMK1 (talk) 21:44, 29 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I urge anyone to actually follow the link regarding the history of Child refugees of the Greek Civil War and see for themselves what PMK1's action was (it was a redirect from a non-POV title to a POV title, so that anyone searching for the history of child refugees of the Greek Civil War would find themselves thinking that all child refugees were ethnic Macedonian). --Avg (talk) 21:59, 29 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Actually i created the article and then mobved it to what i considered a more appropriate title. Your point is baselss and a fellow user created anohter POVFORK of this article.You seem to nominate every article regarding the ethnic macedonians in Greece to AfD. Then you tell the wikipedia community that, that is not a POV? PMK1 (talk) 08:39, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ave seems very sneaky, and this isn't the first time a Macedonian related article was nominated for deletion by him. He seems to say his actions are to prevent "POV" pushing, but anything that isn't pro-Greek is "POV pushing" to him. Mactruth (talk) 04:07, 2 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge. POV forking is not an appropriate method of resolving a content dispute. Stifle (talk) 22:48, 29 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect and merge to Political refugees of the Greek Civil War, final article title to be determined later. It is indeed a POV fork of that article (not of the Child refugees of the Greek Civil War article though; that one is in fact a second POV fork of this one here.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:52, 29 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge content to Political refugees of the Greek Civil War. They cover aspects of the same subject. However I doubt this is a POV forking as its covers details not covered in the other article, such as countries of destination and fates of the exiles. Dimadick (talk) 23:32, 29 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Is merging to Political refugees of the Greek Civil War such a wise option. When the article clearly states The Slavophone Greeks who were taken from Greece refer to themselves as the Detsa Begaltsi (children evacuees). Many of these people had a Greek ethnic consciousness (slavophone Greeks) but were subsequently educated in the Yugoslavic Republic of Macedonia, founded in 1948 by Yugoslavic State, that they were of Slavic origins. other kinds of greek POV on that page. The page is badly sourced and badly written and innacurate. Anyway the point of this article was to inform readers of the "Ethnic Macedonians" who fled Greece. Their story is different to many greek's experiences and are still different today. PMK1 (talk) 05:01, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I looked at the source and it is badly written and clearly POV, I see why PMK made this article. It is ridiculous that the children refugees self declare themselves as ethnic Macedonians, have a "children refugee of aegean Macedonia" festival every year, yet on Wikipedia they are Greek. Mactruth (talk) 04:10, 2 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete or Merge per comments above; POV fork. "Ethnic Macedonians" were not the only refugees of the Greek Civil War, and in any case were rather called Slavomacedonians at the time. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 02:38, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete or Merge In case of merge... to page relating to Greek civil war (or as alternative create page whose title deals with ALL communists ejected from Greece not only FYRoM nationals). I have no problem keeping mention of valid historical points (e.g Greece didn't let Slavic communists back in due to concerns of irredentism) but it must be careful not to attempt to link them together into a narrative that is essentially one long Greek bashing page claiming persecution of FYRoM nationals (because of a series of distinct conflicts...Baltic Wars, WW1, WW2, Communists, Naming dispute).
Due to the Macedonian naming dispute (since Greece also considers Macedonia part of its cultural identity) some FYRoM nationals now have made it a national pastime of accusing Greeks of "persecution" and "genocide" (and comparable to Nazis too apparently)
e.g.
http://www.macedoniainfo.com/macedonia/Genocide_of_Macedonian_Children.htm
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=15759666129
http://www.makedonija.info/
http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/stop-the-macedonian-genocide.html
http://myclubmk.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=7
etc... etc...
I would also ask admins to consider instantly deleting any further attempts to open up one of these persecution-ish POV-forks and warn any contributer who tries to start yet another one. (wasting everyone's time over and over) --Crossthets (talk) 03:05, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
May i ask what the "Baltic Wars" have anything to do with? PMK1 (talk) 20:40, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete or weak merge. This is an obvious POV fork (see commends above and history/talk pages), it was also a very suspicious sneaky attempt to create a redirect to this page from the Child refugees of the Greek Civil War. This article try to support the argument that the refugees were expelled due to their origin which is not the case, all refugees were forced to leave because they were supporting the loosing party. Plus at that time, this group was not called ethnic Macedonias, or anything similar. --MaNiAδIs-τάλκ-03:20, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Is this a real argument or just the one and only think you could say to justify your rather predictable vote? Seriosly, do you have any arguments behind it - have you read the article, have you studied the matter and so on? --Laveol T 23:40, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I have and that is do not bother me. On this wikipedia i do not have nothing to discuss with you. Finito --Raso mk (talk) 23:52, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know what your problem is, but you didn't present any arguments. You just say so, cause most probably this is the only thing you could say. "Do not bother me" is far from an acceptable argument. --Laveol T 23:55, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. The article tries to portray a political conflict as an ethnic one. The exodus (or expulsion) occured cause of the involved people's political beliefs and was not ethnically motivated. Had these slavophones had not supported the (defeated) communist side, they wouldn't have left the country. This is demostrated by the fact that slavophones remained in Greece. The Communists slavophones that remained faced persecution in the years to follow, as did all the communist Greeks in the 1950s-70s. The inclusion of this article in the disambiguation page Exodus, made by its creator [1], clearly tries to present the exodus as an ethnic one, contrary to historical events and facts. The political exodus from Greece after the Greek Civil war has nothing to do with the ethnically motivated German, Italian, Palestinian and Tibetan exodoi, among which it is presented. A clearly POVish and politically motivated article that needs to be deleted. --Hectorian (talk) 10:29, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete! Not only is this article a two-way POV fork, but it also lacks notability, it is way too long for what it refers to, and most of the sources it is based on are dubious. This article implies ethnic persecution and cleansing and does not really cover the "exodus" from Greece after the Civil War, but only the Yugoslavian-Soviet point of view of an un-notable minor aspect of it. It is just a part of the series that attempt to verify FYROM claims of the entire region.--Michael X the White (talk) 12:54, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Delete. POV fork containing questionable data derived from or influenced by organizations promoting "Macedonian Human Rights" (as if to imply that "ethnic Macedonians" were the real sufferers of the Greek Civil War). The article seems to ignore the fact that the so-called "exodus" of "ethnic Macedonians" was a consequence of the civil war in Greece that was instigated by both Skopjean and Greek communist forces. The article also implies that the Hellenic Army was focused on deliberately removing "ethnic Macedonians" when it was technically more concerned over developing strategies in order to prevent Greece from becoming assimilated into the Iron Curtain. Keep in mind that the article contains a section that describes the evacuation of Greek and Skopjean communists from Greece. How can an evacuation mean the same thing as an exodus when the former occurs under circumstances of choice and the latter occurs under circumstances of force? This kind of blatant inconsistency is unnecessary in a Wikipedia article. Overall, articles engaging in the over-politicized victimization of war casualties (i.e. combatants and non-combatants) can hardly be considered encyclopedic for a vast array of reasons. Therefore, I vote that this article be deleted completely. If there is any salvageable data, then it should be academically scrutinized for accuracy prior to being incorporated into other Wikipedia articles. Deucalionite (talk) 13:56, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. This art. exagerates about every fact using unreliable sources. It serves just propaganda purposes. The main historical facts are already mentioned on related articlesAlexikoua (talk) 14:10, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete with a weak merge to Political refugees of the Greek Civil War, according to Fut.Perf.. A pure POV creation by a user who has a long history of creating articles of this quality. Kapnisma ? 16:17, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • That is hipocritical seeing as you made a POV fork of this article. The Child refugees of the Greek civil war. or has that been forgotten
  • Keep. Future, where is your opinion now? Is this pure nationalistic behavior to remove some facts? Would you let the Greek nationalism rule the Wikipedia? If this article would be deleted, that proves your neutrality as administrator. If you allow to be deleted this article than you do not have credibility to tell whether MK Wiki is awful or the articles there are nationalistic (because the EN Wiki works as nationalistic base of the Greeks). Regards-- MacedonianBoy  Oui? 17:56, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Greek nationalists ruling Wikipedia? Nonsense. This article lacks facts and is not neutral regardless of whether or not the users here who question it are Greeks. Even Future Perfect admits that this article is a POV fork. Stop railing against Greek editors (and Future Perfect) just because a certain Skopjean user wrote this unencyclopedic article. Thank you. Deucalionite (talk) 19:21, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Unencyclopedic?? This article is well sourced and referenced, WP:IDONTLIKEIT is one of the main reasons for deletion, not for it bieng unencyclopedic. Macedonian sources were ONLY used when i was not able to find non Macedonian sources. Anyway the sources were used only in the Aftermath and Initiatives and Organisations section. Not very highly disputed. Also NOT implying that the Hellenic Army's main obejctive was to remove ethnic macedonians. They are your own imaginative thoughts. I am also deeply offended at your "Skopjean" reference, i am not from skopje and this is the kind of attitude by anti-Macedonian users. These kind of references are derogatory and offensive, please stop. PMK1 (talk) 20:44, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(Sorry for the interfearence). "Skopje" and "Skopjeans" are the terms Greeks usually use when referring to the people and the country in the north. It has nothing offending in it. If you claim it is your right to call yourselves the way you want, it is also our right to call you with the term we want. (Btw, the world calls us Greeks and our country Greece; though we call ourselves Hellenes and the country Hellas-I've seen no Greek offended by that). --Hectorian (talk) 20:54, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Uh-huh. Your quick to ignore the fact that your article was primarily based on "Macedonian" sources before you decided to incorporate "non-Macedonian" reference citations. Also, some of your "non-Macedonian" sources are not very reliable (i.e. Dennis Hupchick) when used to describe the so-called "forced Hellenization" of Slav-speaking Greeks.
I hate to burst your bubble my friend, but your article does contain information that implies that the Hellenic Army was focused on removing so-called "Aegean Macedonians". Stop denying what you yourself wrote: Over the course of the war thousands of Aegean Macedonians had were killed, imprisoned or had their land confiscated. The sources you used to substantiate this piece of "wisdom" are derived from two authors (i.e. Danforth and Roussos). I've checked these sources and they both contain reference citations from the "objective scholars" at Skopje. The fact that Danforth and Roussos provide no other reference citations to substantiate some of their bold claims doesn't make them very reliable (let alone accurate).
Like I said before, your article is a POV fork and must be removed. Also, I did not call you a Skopjean to offend you. Greeks in general call their "Macedonian" neighbors to the north Skopjeans just like Hectorian explained. So, spare me your useless complaints of "derogatory" and "offensive" behavior on my part. Deucalionite (talk) 22:53, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
@ hectorian, if you wish to be called a Hellene, i will call you one. I on the other hand do not wish to be called a Skopjan because i am not from Skopje. In reference to the point stated: Over the course of the war thousands of Aegean Macedonians had were killed, imprisoned or had their land confiscated.. Yes thousands were killed, BUT this does not mean that Greeks were not killed. In fact Greek and Macedonian fighters died side by side fighting for a cause that they believed in. Talking about one ethnic group, does not deny that the other group was involved, nor that the other group also made sactrifices. This article is merely focusing on the ethnic macedonians who left greece at the end of the greek civil war. There experience was much different than the experience of their fellow greeks, this was markedly mor significant in the years after the war. PMK1 (talk) 05:22, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Pure, unadulterated, gibberish. This article is a POV fork and the so-called "objective" sources you talk about appear to possess underlying political agendas. The Greek Helsinki Monitor, for example, has signatories who have struggled to invent a "Macedonian" minority in Greece (one of them being the Rainbow Party of Greece). The source you provided from the Council of Europe is also questionable since the signatories denouncing the "discriminatory laws" against "Macedonians" mostly come from FYROM and Turkey (not surprising given the deep political ties both countries share). The Country Reports on Human Rights Practices are from the US State Department that obviously supports FYROM since the US government has military/economic interests in the Balkans. As for the Greek Deputy Foreign Minister, his speech is derived from an IOS interview and is presented from within a "Macedonian Human Rights" website. How do we know that the IOS interview wasn't doctored or altered? Even if the interview was not changed, IOS is an extension of the left-wing Greek newspaper Eleftherotypia, which possesses obvious political positions. Granted, there is no such thing as "objectivity". However, your "non-POV" sources are too damn politicized for any scholar to extract any reliable and accurate data. Plain and simple. Deucalionite (talk) 23:21, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
omg not the conspiracy theories again. what was that again the Council of Europe and the US Department along with other 126 (85% of the world) countries in the world that recognized Republic of Macedonia are all part of the conspiracy against Greece. And ofcourse we can consider plausible the statements that Greece is the unique state in the world with no minorities, god forbid a minority from a neighbouring country. You are right, the neutrality of Council of Europe and the US Department is disputed in the light of the significant, reliable and official information from the User:Deucalionite source. Alex Makedon (talk) 00:09, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
OK, lets be honest: the US Department definately cannot be considered objective-if it was, its "objectivity" would be used in Iraq- and Afghanistan-related articles as a unique source. Are there sources other than political? Alex, remember: many countries in the world have indeed recognised FYROM as "Macedonia", but no country or academic institution in the world (save those in Skopje) have endorsed any theory about the purported connection of its people with the ancient Macedonians. That's a Skopjean invention; so, are the 6+ billion people in the world part of a conspiracy against the "Macedonians"? god forbid a minority from a neighbouring country: quite funny that FYROM does not recognise a Greek minority within its borders (not to mention that Bulgarian self-identification was banned until 1998...). --Hectorian (talk) 00:31, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Dont mix Ancient Maceodnians in the matter now. If someone invented talks about Ancient Macedonians-modern Macedonian relation is the Greek goverment, in the bottom line this kind of Ancient-Modern links do not show a thing. No one in their right mind would clame a 3000+ year old descendancy, or succession of ancient civilisations, right?
Republic of Macedonia denies the "existing Greek minority" and Bulgarian identity is "banned" this are Hectorian sourced, the objective, official & reliable information, finaly a bit of honesty after all that POV chat from the bad greek-haters like the Council of Europe and the US Department Alex Makedon (talk) 01:31, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, very "intelligent" responses. It seems that based on your unnecessary comments, it is you who seems to be dabbling in conspiracy theories. Your utilization of "colorful language" in your response to my analysis only indicates that you really didn't review your own sources. Moreover, the fact that you call Hectorian and I "Greek haters" only indicates your inability to provide a rational retort to any form of rational academic scrutiny. Rather than provide better sources, all you're doing now is engaging in implicit ad hominem attacks by judging both Hectorian and I on the contents of our respective userpages. Let me remind you that this community judges users based on their actual contributions and not on whatever stuff they decide to put on their respective userpages. So keep your text-based "tongue" in check. Thank you. Deucalionite (talk) 02:47, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The Council of Europe? When did that happen? Last I heard, it recognized the country only as "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", quotation marks and all. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 02:58, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Watch out Kekrops. You'll end up on Makedon's blacklist of "Greek haters" and "conspiracy theorists" just for exercising basic critical thinking skills. Deucalionite (talk) 03:22, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Been there, done that. I've now progressed to being a sarcastic racist from the poor and insignificant Greek state. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 04:02, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
@ hectorian, the republic of Macedonia recognises five ethnic minorities on its territory, Albanians, Turks, Roma, Vlachs, Serbs. Bulgarians and Greeks combined do not even make up 2,000 people. Anyway that is besides the point. Do you have anything to say to the well referenced article which is proposed for deletion? PMK1 (talk) 05:34, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have made by thoughts clear about the article. The case of the political (id est Communist) refugees of the Greek Civil war should not be presented as an ethnic issue. That's why I am for deleting it. As for the Greek minority in FYROM, I will reply in the same way: the Greek state recognises only one religious minority, the Muslims (Turks, Pomaks, Roma), and also the minorities of Roma, Armenians and Jews. Skopjeans and the rest make up only a negligible part of the population. (Claiming official positions, leads to the same reaction from my part). --Hectorian (talk) 09:23, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am not interested in minorities in Greece or Macedonia. Your thoughts about the article seem very WP:IDONTLIKEIT PMK1 (talk) 11:58, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Most definitely KEEP: First of all this article is very informative and is BACKED by references. About 1/4 of the population of the Republic of Macedonia has origins from Greek Macedonia - thatis they are either refugees or descendants of the refugees from the Civil War, so this is not an fictive issue, this article represents an real event and is backed by references and facts. Regards. --Revizionist (talk) 15:35, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I really can't wrap my head around this article; I guess I just don't know enough about the conflict and the ethnic groups. That said, a very quick look at the talk page makes it look like people are factionalizing (stuff like this). I would really suggest a MEDCAB case for these whole area of Greek/Agean/Macedonian whatever, and don't AfD or create articles in the meantime. This situation really needs to be defused. JeremyMcCracken (talk) (contribs) 16:48, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
..."Greek/Agean/Macedonian whatever"!. I am not going to vote in this AfD. I actually disagree with almost everybody in here, but the wording of the previous comment is simply too much to swallow. Some of us, the happy people of "Whateverland", would appreciate a bit more respect. Even if I find this whole situation ghastly, I am well aware that it matters dearly to a lot of "Greek/Aegeans/Macedonians". If you are sincerely interested in the area you can start by dropping the "whatever" tone and do some reading before any pontification. Oherwise I can't see why one should bother for "whateverians"... --Giorgos Tzimas (talk) 17:19, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not interested. I'm trying to point out that a number of people here, yourself included, are probably going to wind up blocked as a result of all of this, and you should go through DR before it happens. You didn't get what I was saying; I wasn't trivializing this, but stating that I knew nothing about it and wasn't involved in it. Read WP:AGF and take some time out from typing. JeremyMcCracken (talk) (contribs) 20:17, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Try re-reading my answer for a start. You don't have the faintest idea about my conduct so far in Macedonia related issues so I would appreciate it if you kept the patronizing tone to yourself and the blocking admonitions to whomever they may actually concern. Then take some time out and try re-thinking what "volunteer for the Mediation Cabal" actually means, because in my book it doesn't include lack of proper etiquette when refering to a region -be it "Macedonian", "Greek", or "Aegean". I don't have a shred of a doubt that you are actually not interested in, let alone aware of, the issues involved. And BTW, assuming good faith does not presuppose becoming impervious to derogatory remarks. I won't be posting anything else here so should you have any more comments, my talk page would be a more apropriate place. Cheers--Giorgos Tzimas (talk) 00:52, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Jeremy, while I can understand an outsider may occasionally be exasperated at the intensity of conflict in this domain, your comment was undifferentiated, and the "yourself included" was really, really out of place. This would be immediately obvious to you if you knew the participants and the issues a bit better. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:50, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It was supposed to be undifferentiated. Assuming one side is right while the other is wrong (which I can't tell, as I know nothing about the various ethnic groups, Greece, etc.) I've seen a lot of good editors get blocked because they got frustrated and did something out of character. I'd rather see things deescalated before that happens to anybody. JeremyMcCracken (talk) (contribs) 16:05, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Telling a sterling editor like Giorgos that he is "probably going to wind up blocked", when you have not the slightest indication whatsoever of any disruptive actions of his, is extremely insulting. Don't do that. And don't try to rationalise away this attack with hypothetical scenarios in the abstract. If you want to help deescalate things here, this was certainly not the way to do it. (Not that Giorgos was in any need of deescalation, but still...) Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:07, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Compromise proposal

Dear colleagues, I propose a compromise solution of this dispute. Having in mind that the article is backed by references and that it represents a historical fact that is open even today, I propose that the whole article be renamed from Exodus of Ethnic Macedonians from Greece to Ethnic Macedonian refugees from Greece, and a link will be included to the article Political refugees of the Greek Civil War. The ethnic Macedonian refugees are not only those that were evacuated or expelled during the civil war, but also those that refuged in order to be saved from the terror made by the PAO and Tagmata Asfalias during World War 2. By changing the name of the article this dispute will be resolved. I must add that there is no reasonable argument for an article backed with so many references to be deleted, and so renaming it will be the best solution of the dispute. Regards to all. --Revizionist (talk) 19:46, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The issue is not whether there have been refugees (including children) who fled Greece for the Eastern Bloc during or after the Civil War, this is an indisputable fact, so this is not a case of people "denying" the facts. The issue is who were these refugees. This article claims that they were ethnic Macedonians. The reality is that they were people who fought or supported the losing side, the communists, because of the McCarthyist climate of the era. Overwhelmingly these people were Greeks, with small percentages of Bulgarians, Albanians and ethnic Macedonians (perhaps not in the scope of this discussion to mention the reasons that ethnic Macedonians fought together with the communists in the Civil War, most of them were simply communists but at least some others had additional motives, hoping they could get a level of autonomy under a communist rule). Anyway, this is why this is a POV fork. The nationality issue here is irrelevant. The only reason people fled Greece is because of the side they took during the Civil War. It's like creating an article named Exodus of plumbers from Greece, since a small percentage of the people who have left were plumbers. So to sum up the issue should be treated in the article Political refugees of the Greek Civil War. This is why I proposed the deletion of this article, although I do applaud PMK1's effort to list as many references as possible. My problem is (since I have read most of the third party references) that they are about the refugees in general, not the ethnic Macedonian refugees. Therefore I would propose to PMK1, if he's genuinely interested in the subject and not just creating forks to push a particular POV, to channel his effort towards improving the main article (which undeniably needs improvement). However, as I've already stated in the talk page, it's not only PMK1's fault. This is part of a revisionist approach (no pun intended to the above poster) originating from the ethnic Macedonian intelligentsia, which aims at reinterpreting all events of Greek (and Bulgarian) history as centered around the ethnic Macedonians and their alleged oppression. --Avg (talk) 20:14, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Good suggestion User:Revizionist. I have two proposals for your suggestion.First proposal: rename to Ethnic Macedonians refugees of the Greek Civil War. Second Proposal: rename to Deca Begalci, Detsa Begalci or Decata Begalci, depending on the transliteration the second option would probably be the best.
  • Intro to proposal one.
Ethnic Macedonian refugees of the Greek Civil War (title)
The Ethnic Macedonian refugees of the Greek Civil War refers to the group of Ethnic Macedonians who fled or were evacuated from during the Greek Civil War. This event is also known as the Detsa Begalci or the Exodus of Ethnic Macedonians from Greece. ... (example 1)
  • Intro to proposal two
Detsa/Deca/Decata Begalci
The Detsa Begalci is the Macedonian name for the group of children evacuated for the group of children evacuated from the Greek Civil War. This event is also known as the Exodus of Ethnic Macedonians from Greece. ... (example 2)
Please comment on the proposals. PMK1 (talk) 05:01, 2 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This was not an ethnic Macedonian exodus. It was a communist exodus. These were not (only) ethnic Macedonian children. They were just children, Greek or ethnic Macedonian or "whatever" as someone said above. --Avg (talk) 05:09, 2 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The children were just children, yes. But that does not mean they should not have an article written about them. The User:Kapnisma is uninformative and a ridiculous POV of this article. I would not object to the article if it were informative and actually had a purpose, not just a sort of ressurection of a title formerly occupied by this article. There has been discrimination against them on the part of the greek government. Whereas the discrimination against the greek children ended many years ago. This article was designed to focus on the "deca begalci". All people familiar to the topic would have many sympathies towards the children, regardless to their ethnicities. Many sources claim that there was an exodus, this included the Macedonians who were communists. This also included teachers in the 87 Macedonian language schools, journalists of the Macedonian language newspapers etc. These people were not necessarily communists, but rather ethnic macedonians who had utilised the freedom that the communists had given to the ethnic macedonian people in greece. They were also forced to leave or left by choice. I do not mean for this to be a rant but rather some information on the non-communist adults who also left greece. Please comment on the above proposal so that we can improve the article as opposed to just deleting these childrens stories. PMK1 (talk) 06:13, 2 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Saying that the Communists had given freedom to anyone in Greece, could form a debate on its own. At least history has spoken about the Iron Curtain. As for the "exodus", a BBC article attracted my attention a few days ago. Beyond any doubt, among the 500,000 descendants of the Spanish Democratic exiles are quite many thousands of Basques and Catalans. Yet, none has taken the issue so far to create an article like Exodus of Basques from Spain or Exodus of Catalans from Spain. These people left, not cause of their ethnic self-identification, but because the supported the loosing party. Exactly what happened in Greece ten years later. Renaming the article Ethnic Macedonian refugees from Greece or any slavic translation, is not a compromise. I surely know that the Balkans are still a volatile region and that the ethnic "Macedonians" are in need of history and identity (the side effects of a nation-building process), but it is not Wikipedia's business to supply them the tools at the expense of facts. Everyone agrees that all the refugees who left Greece after the civil war were communists. Greek-speaking Greeks, Slavophone Greeks, ethnic "Macedonians", orthodox or muslims, journalists or farmers; this does not mean that we should create an article about each group seperately. --Hectorian (talk) 12:51, 2 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This is not nation bulding. We are not looking for history. This is apart of our history. This was and still is a very important event in the history of the Macedonian people. I cannot comment on the spanish issue, but you are free to create an article if you wish. You seem to misunderstand the term, compromise. PMK1 (talk) 05:59, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, compromise. A fair compromise would be to include the subject of this article in an article that covers all the refugees of the Greek Civil War. Or would having to share the article with the "Greek" refugees be beneath you? ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 06:35, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Beneath me, whats with that tone? I am not making parallels to certain genocides. As far as i can see you have actually put very little effort into to creating an article about refugees of the greek civil war. Now, we cant be possible making other articles за инает, now can we? PMK1 (talk) 08:48, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • KEEP!!!!! This article is up for deletion, yet [Greek refugees] article and [Pontic Greek Genocide] is allowed to remain up! This is the same situation and are parallels to one another. This article should not be deleted, if it is, then the Pontic Greek articles should be too. Revizionists idea is a good one, renaming the article to Ethnic Macedonian refugees from Greece can include the exodus and other refugees that occurred as a result of ww2 policies. Avg you are wrong on the issue, those refugees that were Greek returned to Greece in the 1980s, this focuses on the refugees that could not return to Greece as a result of Greek discrimination, in which "non-Greek" political refugees would not be allowed to return. In any case, the amount of people that returned to Greece were small, and the overwhelming amount proclaim to be ethnic Macedonian. What a horrible argument you present, I wouldn't be surprised if you believed the refugee children were Greek. Mactruth (talk) 00:19, 2 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    But of course most of the refugee children were Greek. Actually many children were sent to the South, not only to the North, and then shipped to the US to adoptive families. From those who were sent to the North, most were Greek speaking. From the Slavophones, most had a Greek consciousness (exactly as it's the case today). Ethnic Macedonian children were a minority. I don't want to offer any figure without proof, but I cannot imagine it is a large percentage of the total 23,696 - International Red Cross figure - number of children who left the country. PMK on the other hand and actually all ethnic Macedonian sources, continuously use the whole figure as being ethnic Macedonian children (and even grossly inflate it to over 30,000), which is ridiculous. Now regarding your comparison with Greek refugees, may I remind you there were 1.5 million Greek (and only Greek) refugees from Turkey after the population exchange, which is more than the whole ethnic Macedonian population, so there is an issue of sheer scale here (and even not with pompous titles like "Exodus"). In any case, how many do you think were denied entry back to Greece after the full amnesty? Only the handful of those who are blacklisted by the Greek government because of their participation in irredentist organisations abroad who demand "unification" of Macedonia. Most of the refugees (including the Greeks), simply decided not to come back after so many years.—Avg (talk) 02:09, 2 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Actually, most of them were not, including the refugee children (who self identify as being ethnic Macedonian). You make a lot of bickering without using any sources, just like the silly "Republic of Macedonia violates Hellenic Human Rights" claims. You are trying to confuse the audience by saying the complete opposite of what is written in history: it is known Greece violates Macedonian human rights, you confuse by saying the opposite, the same is true in the case of the refugees. Again, like I stated those that were Greek have returned to Greece in the 1980s with law changes, if you want to prove your case, show us a document representing the amount of Greeks that got their citizenship back in the 1980s (that will prove your case). In regards to the "1.5 million Greek refugees", 620,000 of them were sent to Macedonia (Greece) and those today believe they are descendants of the ancient Macedonians, but that is a different conversation and thanks for showing us the paradox that arises when your president states "2.5 million (99%) Greeks are Macedonian." Even with that, you try to say one refugee article is more important then the other simply because of the amount of numbers, which is even more ridiculous. Again, all I hear are arguments created a few minutes ago in your head. Mactruth (talk) 03:46, 2 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    If you want sources check the refs in the article Child refugees of the Greek Civil War, check the refs Kapnisma provides at the talk page of the "Exodus" article, check the UN resolutions on the matter of Greek refugee children go to 288.B, check Milan Ristović's "A Long Journey, Greek Refugee Children in Yugoslavia 1948-1960", check Georgios Manoukas' "Child Gathering, Education and Teaching of the kidnapping Greek children" just for starters. Now regarding my "silly" claims regarding violation of Greek Human Rights, perhaps you could check the Greek Foreign Ministry page and see that this is the official Greek position: go to the 1st Q&A. But of course Greece is silly anyway right? Now regarding who ridiculously believes they are the descendants of Ancient Macedonians, three words: Airport, iGenea, Burusho. Nuff said. And by the way, what is the Vergina Sun doing in your user page? Are you a descendant of the Ancient Macedonians?--Avg (talk) 04:25, 2 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The Hellenic Red Cross was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize 19 times for its relief efforts to the Greek refugees. The world's newspapers referred constantly to the Pontic Greek Genocide, and The New York Timeswas awarded its first Pulitzer Prize for its related work. Of course, everyone knows that the American newspapers and the Swedish Academy are biased in favour of the "silly" Greeks, right? (This was a reply to Mactruth. I will not comment on these issues here again; take'em to the respective talk pages, if you wish). --Hectorian (talk) 13:07, 2 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To whomever has the audacity to compare this to the Pontian Genocide, I have only two words. Fuck. You. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 07:40, 2 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To Avg i have listed the sources, which refer to the number of child refugees here on the article's talk page. Please provide you comments their. Rash comments like the ones above should be refrained from. Mactruth try to refrain from over stating your case, or comments like kekrops will become very common to you. PMK1 (talk) 12:04, 2 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The only valid source shown is the UN, but during the Kosovo War in 1990s, most articles called the refugees “Kosovar”, indicating that it was not an ethnic designation, but rather an indication of which nation/state the refugees came from. This may be the same case. All the other “sources” you showed Avg are either Greek or Serbian, and the international community can’t take that seriously considering the Greek-Serbian friendship. In terms of the Greek human rights in Macedonia, it is hilarious because your own government has suppressed Macedonian, Albanian, and Turk identity for a hundred + years now, and only when another nation calls them out do they state “The Greeks in Macedonia have no rights.” If Greeks in Macedonia don’t have rights, then what statement would you use to express the situation of the ethnic Macedonians in Greece? Considering the two cases, only Greek media states the Greeks in Macedonia have their rights violated, while the Macedonians in Greece have been written about in the UN, US Department of State, and Human rights organizations. I believe we are a mixture of ancient Macedonian and Slavic, which is constantly being proven by many genetic testing, not simply iGENEA. But, you can stay in denial, my ancestors have lived in Macedonia long before the 1920s, and as I stated before 620,000 Pontic Greeks (before population growth is taken into effect) believe they are ancient Macedonian due to Greek propaganda.

Hectorian , I never stated the Pontic Greek Genocide never occurred, you are not comprehending my argument. I am stating the Macedonian refugees from Greece are well recorded also, and that a double standard is occurring because of it. As for the personal attack stated by ΚΕΚΡΩΨ, your statements shows you don’t comprehend that the Macedonian refugees were a big event in our history just like the Pontic Greek refugees were a big event in your history. You statements shows lack of respect for other peoples suffering, and you have been reported for it. Mactruth (talk) 16:54, 2 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

People, calm down! This guy is just an other of those that roam around every now and then...Just ignore him and he will return to Maknews forum where he came from the first place.. Kapnisma ? 17:35, 2 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Or, WP:DNFTT, if you will. --Tsourkpk (talk) 18:01, 2 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Back on the subject: This discussion was derailed from the topic. First of all I must agree that I cannot agree with user Kekrops using terms like the F word in his wiki colleagues, for all of us are civilized people, and this kind of attitude insults our intelligence (all of us). Secondly, the article is about a topic which was thoroughly researched - a lot of books about the subject can be quoted, espetially Kirjazovski's book "Македонската политичка емиграција од Егејскиот дел на Македонија во Источна Европа", Скопје, 1989. The article will clearly state that it is about the ethnic Macedonian refugees, which were part of the total amount of refugees from Greece. The Macedonian refugees had thir own cultural organizations, newspapers, magazines and publishing houses. The best sollution is to move the article from Exodus of Ethnic Macedonians from Greece to Ethnic Macedonian refugees from Greece. Btw the article referes not only to those ethnic Macedonians that were evacuated or expelled during the civil war, but also those that refuged in order to be saved from the terror made by the PAO and Tagmata Asfalias during World War 2. Third, the article is backed by many refrences, and there is no real argument for it top be deleted. By changing the name of the article this dispute will be resolved. Regards to all. --Revizionist (talk) 09:54, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, it won't. I, and others here, disagree with the very premise of the article itself, namely that the "ethnic Macedonian" refugees should be treated separately from the others who, having been associated with the losing side in the Civil War, fled the country. You have yet to provide any adequate justification for this. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 10:56, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What if the article is extended with chapters added on the Ethnic Macedonians who left Greece after the end of the German occupation and World War Two. This is also a topic with much information in it. It could also be complimented with the emigration of Macedonians from 1920-1936, and the people who left in the Metaxas era. This way the article would not solely be based on the Macedonian refugees of the greek civil war but on all the Macedonians who have left greece in the past 100 years or so. What are suggestions towards that? PMK1 (talk) 11:25, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You would then have to establish that the people who left before the war were/identified as "Macedonians" (in a specifically ethnic sense), rather than Slav-speakers who suffered discrimination for simply being different. And the weight of evidence is firmly against you, I'm afraid. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 11:36, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That this is an international encyclopedia that cares about validity, not some ultraracist, pseudohistory topic of Maknews forum. Kapnisma ? 11:31, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody claimed that only Greeks left Greece after the Civil War, but what truly left Greece was communists and those seen as leftists. It is normal that some of the communists were non-Greek, if non-Greek populations existed in Greece. But at that time they didn't care for one's ethnicity, but only for their political belief and ideology. So it was never an "exodus" of Greeks, Bulgarians, Yugoslavians, etc. It was an "exodus" of leftists. Renaming won't solve the problem, only mask it differently. The problem is the content, that misses the point. Perhaps we could include a paragraph in the original article for "refugees" after the Civil War, stating that there were some non-Greeks amongst the leftists who left. But this article should be deleted. --Michael X the White (talk) 13:55, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Do what ever you want

Obviously here never anything is regarded weather it is true or not, you people accept everything as “already invented”, and the back of the truth you smile with words “that was the right thing to do”. I doesn't matter if it is on Wiki or some other similar page , on a document ... who cares, it was. Hiding only lies the eyes for a time. I said what I wanted. I just want to point that it is time to reconsider your blind running, things are different out there, maybe thats why you are so confused in this world and other know everything, I hope that most of us learn the life any moment they can. For what do we fight, well where will we be after. I'm Macedonian and will be, sorry if your world is not the way your pride sees it. Vlatko (talk) 19:40, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Wouw, that deserves a Barnstar from one of the rest of you! I can already see it: " Barnstar for Macedonian truth"! And of course it's entirely off topic.--Michael X the White (talk) 19:57, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
here is everything an off topic, numbers do win, not the truth. That is your topicVlatko (talk) 20:09, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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