Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Donetsk People's Republic (Russia)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. I'd also note that the arguments here are essentially the same as Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kherson Oblast (Russia) which saw wider participation. Legoktm (talk) 19:14, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Donetsk People's Republic (Russia) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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Same reasons as Zaporozhye Oblast (Russia) and Kherson Oblast (Russia). Unnecessary fork with an inherent likelihood of turning into a POV fork, and makes maintenance difficult. Best to keep it within existing articles. Panam2014 (talk) 00:29, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2022 October 1. —^{cyberbot I}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 00:41, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Same opinion as for Luhansk. The articles Donetsk People's Republic and Donetsk People's Republic (Russia) don't cover the same topic. The first one is about the independent country that existed from 2014 to 2022. The second one is about a new federal subject within the Russian Federation. Therefore, this article should be kept. Vgaiyfi (talk) 00:59, 1 October 2022 (UTC) WP:STRIKESOCK. Clyde ^{State your case} (please use {{reply to|ClydeFranklin}} on reply) 01:08, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Surprise surprise, Vgaiyfi was a sock. Drmies (talk) 01:04, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• (edit conflict) Delete. It's WP:TOOSOON to have this article. Redrafticiation may also be good since the draft did seem to have quite a few editors working on it, but I'm not one of them, so I didn't want to !vote for that. Clyde ^{State your case} (please use {{reply to|ClydeFranklin}} on reply) 01:05, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• I agree with Clyde's comment! After all, I can't tell as of yet whether the annexation of the "DNR" and other regions is planned or implemented as of yet. Besides, the new articles have very little content on it! SleepTrain456 (talk) 01:34, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete this WP:REDUNDANTFORK. —Michael Z. 02:10, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Russia and Ukraine. Shellwood (talk) 06:53, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per WP:TOOSOON Evercool1 (talk) 07:15, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  The new federal subject will be an oblast, so it is likely that after the ratification by the Federation Council we will see what type of federal subject it will be. There are no People Republic's within Russia, there are Republics though. We should wait until we find out the federal subject type. Dashing24 (talk) 14:03, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Weak Keep we have articles like this already, that is one entity going from territory or puppet state stage to some form of deeeper integration. Like Oklahoma Territory becoming Oklahoma orthe Baathist puppet Republic of Kuwait becoming the Kuwait Governorate or Litbel becoming Belarusian SSR. Since the separatists are de jure separate entities from their prior status it makes sense to have new articles for their new status. That said, this is quite recent so very little has been written so far. All that is on this page could be on their old articles. But I think this page could be kept for future developments. It works either way. 24.44.73.34 (talk) 15:18, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete / Merge per TOOSOON and REDUNDANTFORK as mentioned by others. Let's at least wait until there's more info on what makes this a meaningfully distinct topic. What information would go here that's not already covered by Donetsk People's Republic and Donetsk Oblast? My preference is a restructuring of the Donetsk People's Republic page into an article about the new de facto federal subject. That would make more sense to me than two separate pages. Especially if it ends up using the same name, same flag, and has the same Russian-installed leaders (e.g. Pushilin). Move the parts about Donetsk as a partially recognized quasi puppet state into a history section. The article needs to be trimmed down anyways, we'd kill two birds with one stone and be able to remove the "This article is currently a list of factoids and events" tag.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 21:28, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Wait to Keep By the time this discussion is closed, Donetsk annexation will already be ratified by the State Duma. BigRed606 (talk) 22:48, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep, referenced in multiple reliable sources now. Policy-wise, articles dedicated to unrecognised administrative entities (micronations, quasi-states, occupied territories, etc.) are common on Wikipedia, and we strive to have separate articles representing all the conflicting claims. We thus have both Kosovo and Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija; Azad Kashmir and Jammu and Kashmir (state); Northern Cyprus and Republic of Cyprus; Taiwan Province, People's Republic of China and Taiwan; and so on. Although the annexation isn't recognised outside of Russia, this doesn't make these administrative units disappear. — kashmīrī ^TALK 00:03, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• These examples are more analogous to us having both Donetsk Oblast and Donetsk People's Republic, not having a third "Donetsk People's Republic (Russia)" article.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 01:01, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Donetsk People's Republic no longer claims to exist as a quasi-state. — kashmīrī ^TALK 01:03, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Fair enough, if it's out of the scope of this AfD to discuss covering the two DPR entities on the same page then I may start a merge discussion at a later date (if this page is kept, that is)  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 01:11, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  We tend to have separate articles for each legal form in a region's history. See e.g. hatnotes at each section of Afghanistan#Modern history or History of the British Isles. — kashmīrī ^TALK 13:25, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  This is true, but it's hard to compare Afghan history to Donetsk history, especially when there hasn't actually been any change in the regime. Before 2022, the Donetsk People's Republic was a Russian-occupied polity led by Putin-backed ally Denis Pushilin. And after 2022, the Donetsk People's Republic is a Russian-occupied polity led by Putin-backed ally Denis Pushilin. There wasn't actually any sort of political reorganization here, no history being made.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 22:55, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete as per WP:TOOSOON (way too soon, in fact). TH1980 (talk) 02:56, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

How exactly is it "way" too soon? Super Ψ Dro 08:30, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep this article will exist in the future no matter what. Deleting it now to recreate it one month later is nonsense. Super Ψ Dro 08:30, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Merge with Donetsk People's Republic. I refer to my !vote in the discussion about Kherson Oblast for the reasoning. In short, a case of WP:TOOSOON, but when independent coverage about DPR as a federal subject appears, I'm fine with recreation. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 10:02, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Clearly a notable entity, widely discussed in many sources, regardless of whether it ever actually functions. Furius (talk) 10:58, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The (illegal) existence of such a republic in Russia is a fact, the existence of such a page does not legitimize it in any way, so deletion is absolutely unnecessarily. Ентусиастъ/Entusiast (talk) 14:28, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep all other (claimed or legal) regions under Russia have their own page, including the others annexed by Russia, no need to delete this. See Crimea, Zaporozhye, Kherson, Luhansk.Yeoutie (talk) 18:35, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Russia has already officialised the DNR — Preceding unsigned comment added by MicroSupporter (talk • contribs) 19:29, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep This is a de facto province of Russia, it's not like it's propaganda to include this any more than having an article on the original DPR was. Also, there should be a separate article from the DPR quasi-nation due to its longevity. (Like how we have Chechnya and Chechen Republic of Ichkeria) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.247.144.41 (talk) 00:40, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete or merge. This page is WP:POVFORK of page Annexation of Southern and Eastern Ukraine. Some content could be merged there. In addition, the subject is not clearly defined. If this is about a territorial entity called "Donetsk People's Republic (Russia)", then does it cover the whole Ukrainian Donetsk Oblast or only a part currently occupied by Russia? If the former, this is a misnomer: how can it be "a de facto federal subject of Russia" if most of the territory is de facto controlled by Ukraine? If the latter, then Ukrainian forces just took back a large part of this territory around the city of Liman, and are going to take more tomorrow. My very best wishes (talk) 01:01, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Move to draft: WP:OR It's not even clear as what kind of administrative division Russia is claiming this place. And "People's Republic" is not coming once in Russia's adm. divisons. Beshogur (talk) 14:08, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete like all the other ridiculous FORKS with Putinist irredentist propaganda.Just Alabama (talk) 16:22, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. BitterGiant (talk) 21:40, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per above as a POV fork of something that doesn't really exist. ansh.666 01:37, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment Keep or delete anything can happen but in fever of fact not behalf of pro-Ukrainian sentiment because to many Ukrainian propaganda in the chat. 🇮🇳🇷🇺🇺🇦 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anon-ymousTrecen (talk • contribs) 03:13, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kherson Oblast (Russia) - Jjpachano (talk) 03:16, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge with Donetsk People's Republic or Delete and wait until the 8 October deadline for "full-integration", i.e. the likely time when the legal terms of the newly annexed territory are spelled out by the Russian government. Yue🌙 07:10, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per Yue ThalassocraticEmperor (talk) 13:40, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete honestly, just makes sense Great Mercian (talk) 16:03, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep as per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kherson Oblast (Russia) Mtonna257 (talk) 17:42, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Wikipedia exists to document, not make judgements. There's too many knee-jerk reactions here. Russia has made a claim. Wikipedia documents. It's not a statement of legitimacy. Nobody asking for deletion can claim this does not exist! We tend to write separate claims about territorial conflicts in separate articles. If the war goes Ukraine's way, this article will be an obscure historical footnote. That's fine. Wikipedia has a lot of those. SchmuckyTheCat (talk) 02:41, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• KeepThis probably should have been bundled together with Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lugansk People's Republic (Russia)#Lugansk_People's Republic (Russia). Since both were proposed, both houses of Russian parliament have ratified on 3 October so new legal entities exist. Merely because we have such articles does not mean the physical territories are not occupied and there are articles covering those occupations. Selfstudier (talk) 10:17, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep for the same reasons as at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kherson Oblast (Russia). This isn't a POV fork, it's an article on a subnational governmental entity. Sure, it lacks international recognition, but that does not mean it does not exist. Elli (talk | contribs) 15:15, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It does not exist as a specified territory with defined and stable borders. First, Russia made it bigger during the war, then Ukraine forces made it smaller just a few days ago, after taking Lyman. My very best wishes (talk) 21:48, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete as a clear example of a WP:POVFORK. There is already an article on this region. There is little or no sourcing here that is not repeated from the Russian Government, and nowhere even remotely close to WP:SIGCOV. Cambial — foliar❧ 16:33, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep for now - Wikipedia has no shortage of articles on parallel governments, overlapping territorial claims, unrecognised and/or insubstantial administrative formations, and short-lived political entities. The only reason I can think of why this case should be any different is that, given the current trajectory of the military situation in Ukraine, it's quite plausible that the Donetsk and Luhansk may not remain under Russian occupation for much longer, and that during this time the de facto governance of these two areas as Russian subdivisions will not have been meaningfully different from their previous governance as notionally "independent" puppet states. If this does pan out to be the case, I would fully support merging this article and its LPR analogue into the articles for their preceding puppet states. Ditto for merging Zaporozhye Oblast (Russia) and Kherson Oblast (Russia) with Russian occupation of Zaporizhzhia Oblast and Russian occupation of Kherson Oblast, respectively. --~~ Radio-Somewhere (talk) 16:50, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete as POV fork of Donetsk's People's Republic. Sceptre (talk) 19:09, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, - CHAMPION ^{(talk) (contributions) (logs)} 05:07, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Delete replace the infobox in Donetsk People's Republic with the Russian territory article Mhatopzz (talk) 06:05, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: The other three articles—Kherson Ob. Ru, Zapo Ob. Ru, and Luhansk PR, RU—have all been deleted. We may as well delete this one to be consistent. The entity of "Donetsk PR, RU" should be mentioned inside of the existing article about the DPR separatist state. We need to restructure that article to reflect the new political status. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 08:08, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per Zaporozhye Oblast (Russia) and Kherson Oblast (Russia). POV fork, built around crystal-ball thinking and questionable use of sources. AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:06, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete per 3 others. POVFORK.

  Panam2014 (talk) 14:30, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - It is a WP:POVFORK, to the degree that even just the article's title suggests an advancement of what appears to be a minority viewpoint with respect to an ongoing and daily-changing event. WP:TOOSOON at best. - Aoidh (talk) 17:46, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.