Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Crane Sports F.C.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Wifione _.......^{Leave a message} 13:44, 4 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Crane Sports F.C.

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I'd like to make clear from the outset that I am neutral in this AfD.

Following a series of {{notability}} tags placed by another editor, many of which in turn have been reverted (often but not exlusively by original authors), I'm initiating this AfD to help determine how our notability policies and guidelines should be interpreted in relation to lower league football clubs in the larger countries. I think a focussed discussion from a wide variety of editors should give us a good steer (at the very least for English football). —W F C— 09:02, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. —W F C— 09:04, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Club has played in the FA Vase, which in the past has been accepted as a cut-off point for notability for English non-League clubs (see here). Number 57 09:34, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Although it was two years ago, that was pretty emphatic. Nonetheless, that club had played in the FA Cup, Trophy and Vase, and had separate claims to the GNG. The intention of this AfD is to examine the more specific instance of only having played in the Vase. I want to stress again that I'm not disagreeing with this rationale, merely playing devil's advocate in the interests of discussion. —WFC— 10:13, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  - My point was solely to illustrate past consensus that competing in the FA Vase was regarded as making a club sufficiently notable. Number 5 7 11:30, 1 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Consensus on football club notability in the English system has long been that if a club has played at step 6/level 10 or above in the National League System, or has played in one of the national FA cup competitions, i.e the FA Cup itself, FA Trophy or FA Vase, it is considered notable. A reliable source in this article confirms this club's appearance in the FA Vase. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 10:31, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Also, I'd suggest that sources added to the article since this AfD opened take it at least close to passing WP:CORP. Struway2 (talk) 11:36, 2 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Delete The F.A. Cup should be the cut-off point as this is an internationally recognised national competition which also has top-flight teams competing in it. If a team has not competed in the F.A. Cup then there should be a better reason for keeping the article than simply "in the 80's they played in an amateur cup run by the F.A. that only reaches up to level 8". Many of the team articles on level 11 and lower clubs are nothing more than stubs. Doesn't mean they should all be deleted, but real notability needs to be established. Delusion23 (talk) 11:23, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - as above, this team has played at an acceptable level. Giant Snowman 12:41, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Can we at least have some discussion on whether there is sufficient sourcing available rather than basing the discussion on an arbitrary cut off point that doesn't seem to appear in any guidelines? Quantpole (talk) 16:46, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Delete not notable. Winning the FA Vase is an arguable case. Competing in it should not be. FA Vase should not confer notability automatically. Crane do not have substantial outside interest. MLA (talk) 21:40, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep As per Struway. Koncorde (talk) 11:18, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Actually, I'm not so sure now. Just re-read about the FA Vase and they have changed its eligibility to only teams below the 8th tier. This would effectively give a different set of criteria for teams prior to 2004, than today.Koncorde (talk) 11:17, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Delete The team has not competed in the national cup competition, the FA Cup. We should not assume that small clubs playing in sundry amateur tournaments (that's what the FA Vase is) are inherently notable. A Google search reveals nothing that comes close to significant coverage in reliable sources, which is the definition of notability. BigDom talk 11:08, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. If a team meets WP:GNG then keep it. If it plays in a fully pro league, keep it. I would probably add that if it plays in the highest league of that country keep it (maybe with some sort of qualifier - maybe a member of that league has played in the first round proper of their confederation's Champions' League?) If it plays in the national cup competition probably keep it, although bear in mind the Coupe de France has 7449 clubs competing in it this year. My understanding of guidelines in addition to the WP:GNG is that they are there to indicate that a subject will be notable if you look hard enough, just maybe not on the internet (or in English). It isn't safe to assume a club will have notability just by playing in the Vase. I'd also question whether playing in the first qualifying round for the FA Cup should automatically confer notability but I'm in the minority there. Stu.W UK (talk) 12:07, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Prior to 2004-05 the Suffolk & Ipswich league would have been at Level 10 of the English football structure, which is the accepted cut-off for notability. In addition, I believe competing in the FA Vase is notable; the competition receives substantial coverage, and a new/reconstituted team wishing to play in the FA Cup for the first time has to compete in the Vase (or FA Trophy) firstly, in order to be able to play in the FA Cup the following season. Eldumpo (talk) 16:48, 28 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: If a consensus is evertually reached it would be a good idea to have it worded out unambiguously for reference i.e. specifically Notability criteria for English football clubs. If any club passes this criteria it should be very clear in the article itself that the club does pass this criteria for example "this club played in 20xx F.A. Cup" (or Vase if it's actually deemed notable) or "this team was at its highest point in English football when it played in X league in 19xx when this was level 10". Obviously this should all have credible references.Delusion23 (talk) 21:01, 1 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.