Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Carmel School Giridih

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. WP:SNOW. (non-admin closure) Armbrust, B.Ed. ^{Let's talk}_{about my edits?} 18:09, 28 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Carmel School Giridih

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No third party reliable sources given to deem the school notable. The article is either based on primary sources or non reliable ones, one sources from telegraphindia.com might be reliable but that too doesn't give the school itself a significant mention. Multiple reliable sources from third parties are needed to establish notability. lTopGunl (talk) 14:57, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have notified about this article on | India project page and editors of the article Carmel Convent School (Giridih)--Ðℬig XЯaɣ 03:18, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

most of the news regarding the School come in Print media (newspapers) and other offline sources that too in the local language Hindi, so its not easy to provide references for verification.(see wp:BIAS) I found some articles on on an Independent source, the website of a national neswpaper (The Telegraph) when the school was in the popular news so producing them

The Official Website of the Indian_Certificate_of_Secondary_Education Board the School is affiliated to.
The Official website of the Local District administration in Giridih
https://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks:1&q=%22Carmel+School+Giridih%22 Book : The Commonweal, Volume 102; Volume 102
The Telegraph article (a national newspaper) Sahay, who has done his schooling from Carmel School, Giridih and graduation from Giridih College, followed by an LLB from Patna, is well known in the legal circuit.
The Telegraph article Giridih :Vidyut is not a professional web page designer, but pursuing chartered accountancy and passed his Class X from Carmel School, Giridih,
The Telegraph article Giridih : from Carmel Convent School and plus two from BNS DAV Public School in Giridih .
The Telegraph article Giridih:The two have scored the same percentage in the ICSE examinations as students of Carmel School here.
The Telegraph article Giridih : The son of doctor Md. Azad, Shahrukh a Class IX student of Carmel School
The Telegraph article Giridih : all the four have studied in Carmel School, Giridih, till the Class X.
The Telegraph article Giridih : carmel School
The Telegraph article Giridih : carmel School
The Telegraph article Giridih : carmel School
The Telegraph article Giridih : carmel School
The Telegraph article Giridih : carmel School
website giving Some info of regional schools
प्रभात खबर : एक्स कार्मेलाइट एसो का मिलन समारोह (offline news article in Hindi whose clipping can be produced)
हिंदुस्तान : एक्स कार्मेलाइट एसो पुनर्गठित (offline news article in Hindi whose clipping can be produced)
School Diary (for infobox information regarding founder, dates, colours etc) ((offline source) (the school doesnt yet feels the need for a school website due to popularity of print media over online media in the region)
The School's official Phone number +91 6532 222169/222524 (source [1] [2])
(will add some more soon if the above seems to be insufficient for this School related article to stay)--Ðℬig XЯaɣ 11:11, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Delete as proposer, no sources. --lTopGunl (talk) 15:58, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

already there were official citations now i have added some more citations above for. this Wiki article on School. --Ðℬig XЯaɣ 20:00, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep - As far as I can tell, this is a secondary or high school (or equivalent), which are usually kept. There are not many sources, but this may be more of a case of systematic bias than a lack of notability. ItsZippy ^{(talk • contributions)} 15:10, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Exactly why this AfD will ensure that the interested editors provide the sources if the article is to be kept. If there are sources, I assume they can be presented. That will remove the systematic bias. School articles are usually kept, but this one doesn't have any sources... so there are as much chances of it being non notable as there are for its notability keeping in mind that wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not a school directory. --lTopGunl (talk) 15:22, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  - I've tried some searches for google books and google news, the few results that come out are bare mentions. --lTopGunl (talk) 15:24, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    - I understand that; however, if the school is an Indian secondary school (or has a secondary school as part of it), I would presume it notable, based both on the common outcomes outlines at the schools WikiProject and the potential problems with systematic bias. Are you (or do you know anyone who would be) able to do a sufficient source for other language sources, specifically Hindi? ItsZippy ^{(talk • contributions)} 15:45, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      - Yes, I know what you mean... infact I am generally in favour of keeping content that can be sourced even later. I tried some searches my self and they didn't give good results, hence the AFD. I think DBigXRay might be able to provide sources as he seems to have related knowledge. This should be listed at wikiproject schools to invite input. In anycase, we can not assume there 'would be' references for it, as none can be found. This can be changed if some editor provides some. --lTopGunl (talk) 15:54, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        I would also like to see what the creator of the article can provide by way of sources. I think that, while assuming references can be found is usually a bad idea, I am more sympathetic to doing so when the subject is covered by our typical outcomes and sources are also likely to be hard to find (the language barrier, in this case). I will alert those at WP:SCH. ItsZippy ^{(talk • contributions)} 16:32, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        I think other language reliable sources can work along with translations? Unfortunately we can not tell whether the sources are hard to find or not present at all. Generally if no sources are present, article is recreated when there are some. I agree with you about the systematic bias... but your statement can also imply that no reliable source has ever published significantly about the school. A subject can be notable, but wikipedia needs reliable sources to establish notability... the systematic bias for the developing countries has this unfortunate effect, but we can not possibly assume that some source present some where establishes notability here without being provided. --lTopGunl (talk) 16:39, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep (as creator)- The school is well renowned and exists since 1954. This is a (Kindergarten + Primary + secondary + Senior Scondary ) School In Giridih and has sufficient references in the article itself. I can provide more if needed. but this may take time - --Ðℬig XЯaɣ 15:40, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have produced some news articles above but most of the major news about the school is published in local newspapers of the region namely हिंदुस्तान and प्रभात खबर which are published in Hindi (which is the regional language). These are offline sources and the website does not contain archives to old articles, besides searching in other languages for school related articles is another major challenge. Another important point to keep in mind while deciding is: In this (Jharkhand) region of India the print media is far more popular than website, and news channel website provide only national news, even then I managed to produce some online articles on the school --Ðℬig XЯaɣ 00:44, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
[UPDATE] While looking for possible "local" citations sources i also had a look on wiki pages for other educational institutes in the "local"jharkhand region, but the situation is even worse there(probably all of them are plagued by the issue which is less number of "Online" and "English" sources ). they report 1 or 2 links (some of which are dead by now), so deleting this would justify deleting a large number of such articles in the region.--Ðℬig XЯaɣ 01:37, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia accepts offline sources, but they have to be provided inline with complete information. If you provide sources in other languages I think you might need to provide translation... I'm not sure about that, may be someone else can clarify about sources in other languages? --lTopGunl (talk) 00:33, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

looking for offline sources is not easy as said, some online sources have been provided in section above and a Tag for more citations has also been placed. besides wiki articles on schools are never subject to speedy deletion owing to the difficulty about sources. --Ðℬig XЯaɣ 00:51, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I understand that, I've added details on the problems with online sources which can be further discussed by all editors. Offline sources might be difficult to find, but unfortunately that can't be an argument to keep articles or assume that they are present. Sources have to be presented and verified. As for speedy deletion, you are right, and I did not tag this for a speedy deletion for the same reason rather for a deletion process with due discussion. This normally gives editors a week to discuss and provide sources to establish WP:GNG. --lTopGunl (talk) 01:03, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just a quick reply to the updated comment about other articles with issues: WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS. --lTopGunl (talk) 01:49, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Analysis of sources: The current references in the article are: a school diary from the school itself (primary/self-published source), a telephone directory (really?), a website that lists a few schools (either a school directory or promotional), a deadlink with no other information [3], yellow pages (non RS), 1-2 other references that locate the school? WP:ITEXISTS is not a good reason for an article to be kept. This [4] single source might be reliable but it gives the school a bare mention... and is rather about the person. AFDs take a week, so you have time to provide sources to establish notability... but as of now there are none. --lTopGunl (talk) 15:48, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Though I have voted to keep it, I do think that the sources could be improved. At the moment, there are a few primary references and some directory mentions. Primary sources are not helpful as they cannot establish notability; directory coverage is routine and every school will have this kind of coverage. Do you know of any news sources or the like from independent sources? ItsZippy ^{(talk • contributions)} 15:45, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  - Other than my above analysis of the sources provided, the sources about the alumni also don't establish school's notability, rather are crediting the notability of those people. The bare mentions can only be enough for the school to be mentioned in the BLPs of those persons instead of the school having its own article. Please provide sources that actually are about the school. --lTopGunl (talk) 17:00, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Has produced some notable people and has been mentioned in the following reliable sources. [5][6][7][8][9] And is discuseed in this book from the Jayaswal Research Institute Comprehensive history of Bihar, Volume 3 Darkness Shines (talk) 16:50, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Also gets a mention for helping with the 50th anniversary of the Shimla-Chandigarh Diocese[10] Darkness Shines (talk) 17:12, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sister Ann here talks of how her school should spread religious harmony[11] More here [12] Darkness Shines (talk) 17:18, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This source goes into extensive detail on the school[13] Darkness Shines (talk) 17:23, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Further analysis of sources: [14] Does not mention Carmel School Giridih, rather about Carmel Convent School. Same is the case with [15]. This one is about Carmel Convent School in Faridabad [16]. The following sources are about the alumni giving just a mention to the school just enough for the school to be mentioned in articles about them as notability is not inherited. [17][18][19][20][21]. The book cited is available online and does not render any results for even the title of the school [22] [23]. --lTopGunl (talk) 17:43, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I must clarify that there are a number Carmel Schools all around the world . this one is in Giridih Jharkhand and in my references i have mentioned Giridih clearly. hope this clarification is sufficient - --Ðℬig XЯaɣ 18:45, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- https://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks:1&q=%22Carmel+School+Giridih%22 this is in response to the Lies wp:LIARLIAR spread by TopGun the google search clearly gives the address of the school beside the book result (note: Bihar has been divided into Jharkhand)--Ðℬig XЯaɣ 18:37, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The school's name comes in newspapers because of the important work of its alumni. i dont need to elaborate this --Ðℬig XЯaɣ 18:52, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- these links Clearly refer to Carmel School Giridih

Before you start calling other editors liars, read the link you cited yourself. It is a blatant personal attack. No matter how many notable alumni you add, it wont get the notability inherited to the school. WP:NOTABILITY is not inherited. --lTopGunl (talk) 22:50, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have already shown your lies above.Irrespective of what you think the article satisfies the desired requirements , is notable (by wiki standards) and is gonna stay. --Ðℬig XЯaɣ 09:14, 28 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The correct name for the school is Carmel Convent School so I have moved it to Carmel Convent School (Giridih) Darkness Shines (talk) 17:48, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- DS please note that the Correct and official name of the school is Carmel School, Giridih since it is a convent school ~~often~~ sometimes in media and newspapers it is named as Carmel Convent School , regards --ÐℬigXЯaɣ 17:58, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  - For better or for worse, Wikipedia uses common names over systematic or formal names. Uncle G (talk) 22:02, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    - I must clarify that the newspapers have called the same school as Carmel School and also as Carmel Convent School in links mentioned above --Ðℬig XЯaɣ 00:02, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Strong KEEP The Wikipage for Carmel School should be kept. There are some malicious intentions trying to remove this page...they must sure have been removed by the school from school rolls for failing successively in two yearly examinations.-Mohit,2004 batch --125.63.115.13 (talk) 18:30, 25 February 2012 (UTC) — 125.63.115.13 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
Strong keep- The school exists since 1954 and hence it is obvious that it has a wide alumni base and most of the references given are verifiable. Also being the only ICSE school in the district it holds a unique status and is considered an important hub of school level education in the region with a population of around 143,529. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.252.231.7 (talk) 18:14, 25 February 2012 (UTC) — 122.252.231.7 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
- An encyclopaedia like Wikipedia doesn't include/exclude things because they are important/unimportant. Notability is not fame nor importance. Uncle G (talk) 22:02, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The illiteracy and disregard for WP:MOS of the alumnus-generated text suggest the school is not notable. Spicemix (talk) 20:25, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- No, it does not; and the closing administrator will discount your argument for being as bogus as the silly ad hominems from 125.63.115.13 above. Stick to evaluation of the provenances and depths of the sources. Uncle G (talk) 22:02, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless of Spicemix's comment, the meat-puppetry of alumni (the creator being one and then suddenly IPs showing up to support) makes me loose the good faith I had. --lTopGunl (talk) 22:53, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Meat-puppetry allegation aha that too without any evidence, great! i'll request editors to refrain from serious personal attacks such as one above but conc on sibject matter. as for the IPs the admins can always invoke CUs --Ðℬig XЯaɣ 23:53, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

CU never match accounts to IP,s, they are always declined. Darkness Shines (talk) 23:53, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Also all those IP's geolocate to different areas of India, all have different ISP's so they are obviously not all you

Darkness Shines (talk) 00:02, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A remark on the 'offline' Hindi article [24] listed in the sources. The comment says the article is offline (while a link to the main page of a website, rather than the article, is given), does that mean the article was online and is now offline? Wayback machine and other internet archives can be used to access and verify those. I'll also like comments on the usage of foreign language sources and whether translation is needed to count them in. --lTopGunl (talk) 01:24, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Another Bad faith and misleading comment by TopGun continuing WP:BATTLE mentaility. it only means that a website for the newpaper exists but the link to the article does not exist (no archive) or is not searchable as it is in Hindi language. ill be glad if you can help me in scouring that website. --Ðℬig XЯaɣ 03:03, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per WP:NHS. bad faith nomination by TopGun exhibiting continuing WP:BATTLE mentaility.--Wikireader41 (talk) 02:47, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep vide Wikireader41. AshLin (talk) 03:19, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep: I recommend that this page should not be deleted. It is a strong keep indeed. Wikipedia may be having 100s of school stubs which are really to be deleted, but this school is notable undoubtedly. As regards the reliable sources, please note that digitilization process in many part of India is not of an acceptable level and hence it may be difficult to always cite web sources. Thus, for example, one may find 100s of web references for a plumbing firm in Europe or North America whereas even a current mayor of Ranchi ("Rama Xalxo"+mayor), capital city of an Indian state (Jharkhand) may have less number of web references than me ("Gangadhar Bhadani"). As such, we should rely on the good faith of the contributors and keep the page. --Bhadani (talk) 06:48, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

agree with Bhadani, as said above the location is a good example of wp:BIAS The Jharkhand region of India is one of the less developed region in terms of internet coverage among the masses --Ðℬig XЯaɣ 11:24, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep sources provided by DBigXray are enough to qualify notability. Around The Globe^{सत्यमेव जयते} 12:36, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Common Wikipedia experience is that the world at large takes note of high schools, and the sources show that this is not an exception. Unscintillating (talk) 23:19, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:08, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:08, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - This is a significant high school that educates to Indian Certificate of Secondary Education and 12th grade which consensus indicates is notable. In any case the school meets WP:ORG. For parts of the world with no tradition for dumping everything on the Internet to avoid systemic bias local sources should be researched and there is no WP:BEFORE that this has happened. TerriersFan (talk) 02:18, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - It seems to me that the nom. has issues with the fact that the article is sparsely sourced and needs expanding, but AfD is not WP:CLEANUP. On the other hand, significance has been shown in the article, and I align with what TerriersFan has said above. ˜danjel [ talk | contribs ] 05:23, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per my standards. Bearian (talk) 22:13, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.