Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/César Luis González

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. A whole lot of "I like it" vs" I don't like it" arguments here, but there doesn't appear to be a strong consensus to delete. bibliomaniac15 22:36, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

César Luis González

César Luis González (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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Fails WP:SOLDIER and WP:GNG. A first lieutenant who died in a training accident and received common awards. Lettler^{hello • contribs} 15:10, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Lettler^{hello • contribs} 15:10, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Lettler^{hello • contribs} 15:10, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Aviation-related deletion discussions. Lettler^{hello • contribs} 15:10, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Puerto Rico-related deletion discussions. Lettler^{hello • contribs} 15:10, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. Lettler^{hello • contribs} 15:10, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep - When an American military personnel of any race becomes the first of his race to accomplish a feat an article is written and no-one complains. However, now it seems that there is an agenda to delete articles of heroic Hispanic military personnel. Gonzalez was the first Puerto Rican pilot in the United States Army Air Forces and the first Puerto Rican pilot to die in World War II. His name is listed on the "Roll of Honor" of the 314th Troop Carrier Group World War II and both, his hometown Adjuntas and the Capital of Puerto Rico, San Juan, have honored his memory by naming a street after him. Are these accolades given to some-one who is not notable? Tony the Marine (talk) 16:23, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, actually, they are. Notability as defined by Wikipedia is not "a noteworthy person", it is extensive coverage in reliable, third-party sources. There is no agenda to delete articles of heroic Hispanic military personnel, and I would ask you to please dial back your assumptions of bad faith - the fact is there are quite a few articles on non-notable military personel that were created based on misconstrued presumptions of notability like yours, and therefore, when they are cleaned up, it can look like "targeting" until you consider the actual facts. That said, being the first Puerto Rican pilot in the USAAF should be a presumption of notability, but...
• Weak keep - ...we have to verify it. I can find three hits in gBooks that mention this fact; two of them are SPSes/vanity publishers that have wording that makes it pretty clear they sourced from us. The third is an ABC-Clio published book and should be reliable [1], but my antennae are twitching as to its sourcing (i.e. they may have pulled from us...) and it is only a passing mention to boot. I'd really like to see this sort of fact cited multiple places, especially in "pre-Wikipedia" sources; the fact there don't seem to be any mentioning this makes me twitch even more. (I'll also note the fact isn't even actually cited in the article or even mentioned outside the lede.) If somebody can find a source that is both reliably published, pre-dates Wikipedia, and clearly states this fact, I'll happily change to a "full keep", but as it is right now there's merely the presumption of notability that can only be verified in the weakest of ways. I'm willing to AGF with my !vote here that sources, offline likely, exist, and thus not being a BLP that's enough, but... - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 19:08, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete let us stop pretending terms like "race" have any meaning. They are fluid over time, and so the first person of x race in y nation to achieve z military designation is not a good standard for notability. China has 55 races that they recognize as being widely present there, Myanmar recognizes 85 races in their country. We follow sustained 3rd-party coverage, we do not make up inclusion criteria on our own.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:39, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Clarification please, your assertion that references didn't exist? As per your usual practice, you made this assertion without actually doing your own web search to confirm your assertion other references didn't exist was accurate? I found one. Maybe if you looked you'd find some too? Geo Swan (talk) 02:41, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep I agree with Tony, being a first is significant. Geo Swan (talk) 02:15, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete fails WP:SOLDIER and WP:GNG, first X nationality to do/receive/die during Y is not notable. We don't have pages for the first person of every nationality, US state or territory to do something, so no reason why an exception should be made for Puerto Rico. Mztourist (talk) 03:07, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep; WP:SOLDIER is an essay and WP:GNG does not seem to apply here. While some of the uncited stuff probably needs to get backed up with something or get out of the article; AfD is not the same thing as cleanup. jp×g 17:39, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • WP:GNG does not seem to apply here On what basis is this rather bold assertion made? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:54, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Well, I probably should have said something like: per Bushranger's post above, which examines GNG and presumes notability, erstwhile no other post seems to even consider GNG (instead focusing on WP:SOLDIER or other stuff I don't quite understand). jp×g 23:39, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

My comment clearly states that he fails SOLDIER and GNG. Mztourist (talk) 14:07, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see anything about whether or not it has significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject beyond WP:JNN. jp×g 16:01, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

He clearly does not have SIGCOV in multiple RS. Mztourist (talk) 08:02, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep "first is significant" -- "Puerto Rico has representation in all international competitions." It is different than being the first person from a U.S. state to do something. Durindaljb (talk) 02:46, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Where is the policy that states "first is significant"? Mztourist (talk) 03:49, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is filled with countless entries that state "first X military casualty" with this fact essentially being just about this person's only claim to fame. That is sort of what wikipedia is all about! A person is going to have delete a large chunk of wikipedia to delete all such similar entries. Durindaljb (talk) 11:08, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Then they should all be deleted unless that status has SIGCOV in multiple RS. We should not have a page for the first or last person of each nationality/ethnicity to die in every conflict. Mztourist (talk) 03:44, 26 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Seems a rather ho-hum military career. Could be a subsection in an article about Puerto Rico in WW2 or something, no sure we need a whole article. Oaktree b (talk) 21:08, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - I don't even feel that this needs to be discussed! Gonzalez was the first Puerto Rican pilot in the United States Army Air Forces! That alone merits it! BoriquaZurdo (talk) 20:30, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • First x nationality to die during/do/achieve y is not notable. Mztourist (talk) 04:35, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep As per all above "first is significant". Akronowner (talk) 05:37, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please provide the relevant policy or guideline that supports this assertion. Mztourist (talk) 14:15, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Blocked sock. MER-C 12:54, 8 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep per WP:ANYBIO, having two streets named after him is a "well-known and significant award or honor." I have also added a commentary source from the Air Force: Hispanic Airmen Impact Predates Air Force that verifies information in the article and supports notability, including per WP:BASIC, i.e. "If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability." Beccaynr (talk) 22:37, 13 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.