Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/By any means necessary

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was keep. SushiGeek 09:07, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is just a phrase from a speech, not an appropriate subject for an article. Perhaps it could be merged and redirected to the Malcom X article, but as it stands I'd say delete. (The link to Wiktionary is misleading, incidentally, as there's no entry there.) Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 13:12, 23 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete: Belongs in Wikiquote. Chart123 14:07, 23 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

*Redirect to Malcom X. Redirects are cheap and it's a plausible search. JoshuaZ 21:32, 23 April 2006 (UTC) Merge and make a Disambig per Wick's second comment. JoshuaZ 23:58, 23 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge & Redirect. per above. Keep & Disambig. DVD+ R/W 21:33, 23 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect per Josh and DVD R W. Morgan Wick 23:03, 23 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • On second thought, it seems to be a partial disambig page as well. Keep the redirect, remove the Malcolm X-specific parts, and turn the rest into By any means necessary (disambiguation) with a link from Malcolm X. Morgan Wick 23:06, 23 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes, good point Morgan Wick. DVD+ R/W 00:06, 24 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep: The article leaves much to be desired, but I think there may be potential for a legitimate article. "By any means necessary" is more of an idea than it is just a quote. It symbolized the difference between the resistance advocated by Malcolm X and the resistance of civil disobedience advocated by Martin Luther King. ScottW 23:58, 24 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Keep as per ScottW. Gosh, I wonder why Where's the beef?, Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead, and Resistance is futile haven't generated at least as much momentum for deletion. Or even Turn_on, tune in, drop out. Should I be puzzled? Monicasdude 20:58, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm a bit surprised at what seems to be a sarcastic reference to the idea that anti-black racism is involved. Aside from my own record in that area, all this "momentum for deletion" consists of one delete vote apart from mine... Taking your question seriously, all the examples that you quote are complete sentences, this is a phrase that means little out of context. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:27, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  Two delete votes, two votes to remove the individual article, 3 keeps. I'm referring to overall patterns of behavior, not to any particular user's actions. And "Where's the Beef" and the Franco quote have significant out-of-context meaning? Monicasdude 22:27, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  I don't know the Franco one, but even in the U.K. the "where's the beef" advertising slogan became known through comedy shows, etc. (My point, though, was that the analogy doesn't hold because they're all complete sentences.) Have the other three been taken to AfD? What was the response, and what were the arguments? I'd have probably argued against all three, but of the more thana million articles here, I'm able to look at a tiny fraction. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 07:54, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete, but send to Wikiquote and merge with Malcolm X if possible. Bjelleklang - talk 01:45, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep, per ScottW and Monicasdude above. Look in Category:Political slogans and see what our de facto notability threshhold is for such things, complete sentences or not. This one is extremely important; I've certainly seen "by any means necessary" - as a standalone phrase - used to symbolize and express support for the flip side of the "I have a dream" aspect of civil rights. This article should be expanded, not deleted. -GTBacchus^(talk) 15:32, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Are you really saying that you support Monicasdude's accusations of racism? User:Zoe|^(talk) 02:01, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

    I dunno, have you stopped beating your wife? In other words, if I answer your question in either of the obvious ways, I'm rhetorically trapped into agreeing with you that Monicasdude is alleging that you're racist, which you've just claimed here. I'll pass. I agree with Monicasdude's argument for inclusion, which I took to be that the topic of the article under discussion is at least as notable as the topics of the other articles mentioned. That's what I get out of his vote, anyway, but I'm sure I'm bringing my own assumptions to my reading... -GTBacchus^(talk) 02:08, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

    See how Beno100 was able to give a straightforward answer and you refuse to do so? What should I read into that? User:Zoe|^(talk) 02:39, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

    Precisely what's written into it - I'm calling you out on a rhetorical trap you're oh-so-cleverly laying. GTB don't play. I will say this - I'm kind of racist. I think I'll be the rest of my life learning to overcome prejudices that I've internalized without noticing. (Growing up in the South can't have helped.) I'm certainly capable of contributing to systematic bias, through action and through omission, if I'm not attentive. What do you want to bet I'm not the only one? Monicasdude is calling this AfD an example of systematic bias - is he right? I have no idea. I can't see into Mel Etitis's soul or that of anyone voting "delete", and neither can Monicasdude. His post is rude, but I don't know that it's wrong. Each of us can ask ourselves if the shoe fits, and there you go. -GTBacchus^(talk) 02:57, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

    Thank you. I know where you're coming from now in all of your oh-so-friendly, butter won't melt in your mouth, badgering of me. User:Zoe|^(talk) 03:01, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Regardless of the final outcome, Wick is correct that we need a disambig page. JoshuaZ 15:37, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  On that note, the Boogie Down Productions album is actually called By All Means Necessary, which certainly refereces the Malcolm X quote, but isn't the same. Fixing the article now... -GTBacchus^(talk) 15:42, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment Yeah, I can buy into making By any means necessary a disambiguation page and moving the Malcolm content to By any means necessary (Malcolm X) (preferably) or By any means necessary (quote) . I'm not so sure about keeping the band information though (see the talk page).
• Weak keep As per Monicasdude's comment above. Beno1000 23:49, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Are you really saying that you support Monicasdude's accusations of racism? User:Zoe|^(talk) 02:01, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • No, I am saying that I support his comment that some possibly less notable phrases have Wikipedia articles while this one does not, and could probably be seen as very notable. Beno1000 02:06, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Thank you for the clarification, something others don't seem capable of doing. User:Zoe|^(talk) 03:02, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.