Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Autoshite

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete. Michig (talk) 13:12, 29 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Autoshite

Autoshite (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Puffery content to promote James Ruppert. Ireneshih (talk) 16:16, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete on current sources for failing to meet WP:GNG. I can find plenty of casual use of the term online, but no press coverage of "autoshite" as a movement, or even enough for a bare bones dictionary definition or one-line mention in the decrepit car article. The current references are backing up facts related to autoshite (an inspirational book existed, car production is bad for the environment and scrap metal legislation has changed), but aren't telling us anything about autoshite, so don't help to meet WP:GNG.
User:Micrashed mentioned on the article talk page that it's had some coverage in the motoring press - if we can get clearer details of that, maybe there's something worth writing about it. --McGeddon (talk) 16:44, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename to Bangernomics - it looks like this is the term actually used in fair number of press articles about the general practice of maintaining and running old cars, which seems enough to meet WP:GNG. (Many of them seem entirely independent of James Ruppert.) I haven't been able to find any sources that suggest "Autoshite" is anything more than one particular web forum dedicated to a spinoff of the practice, and it's unclear how much "Autoshite practitioners" just means "people from the autoshite.com forums" in the current version of the article. --McGeddon (talk) 10:43, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Re. Rename to Bangernomics - disagree - as mentioned elsewhere there is a fundamental difference between bangernomics (which is primarily an ecological / cost-saving exercise) and adherence to the autoshite ethos, which is more attuned to the preservation of unpopular or forgotten vehicles regardless of cost.--80.47.97.58 (talk) 13:22, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate there's a difference, but we've currently got several reliable, secondary sources about bangernomics, and none about autoshite. The end result may have to be a short article about bangernomics which doesn't mention autoshite, if that's all that the sources can give us. (Are there any other names for the practice which might turn up some better sources?) --McGeddon (talk) 14:01, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I understand that a search is being made for articles that specifically mention Autoshite by name. Please note that these sources are likely to be from the specialist automotive press rather than mainstream media sources though, for the reasons specified earlier (i.e. avoidance of perceived profanity).--Mittweida (talk) 14:30, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Are mainstream press avoiding profanity by calling it something else, writing about it without using any particular name, or by just not writing about it? If we have a pile of sources that describe the phenonemon without giving it a name, we could likely build some kind of article from it (possibly an article titled Bangernomics with a large subsection about preserving forgotten cars). --McGeddon (talk) 14:54, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
They are reporting it, but they are not referring to the phenomenon by a specific name - see the 2011 Daily Mail article referenced at the bottom of this discussion. --Mittweida (talk) 15:32, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
At face value, that article about "previously unfashionable classic cars" seems more suited to a new paragraph in the Classic car article. --McGeddon (talk) 18:02, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I understand what you're saying, but the "Autoshite" ethos is rather more multi-faceted and diverse than the mainstream classic car world. As further evidence that Autoshite is a separate entity, the equivalent German designation for more modern classic cars ("Youngtimer", see the German Wikipedia article referenced below) is even regulated in the 49th Exemption Regulation of the Federal Road Traffic Licensing Act (StVZO).--80.47.97.58 (talk) 19:28, 19 November 2015 (UTC)--Mittweida (talk) 19:29, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, I get that, but the Mail article is just "look at these retro cars which are now considered classic". If you want this article to be about "autoshite", you need to provide a source that discusses the term in the same depth as the "bangernomics" articles. I don't think we've even had a reliable press source that uses the term in passing, let alone discusses it. --McGeddon (talk) 20:25, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Definitely not content to promote James Ruppert (or Jalopy magazine) as Ruppert promoted the term Bangernomics. Autoshite differs slightly from Bangernomics in that rather than following the mainstream car preservation ethos particularly those that concentrate on high end models of a particular marque - Autoshite often preserves the bread and butter lower end or less popular cars - one practitioner has rebuilt and restored two FSO Polonez pick up trucks - a vehicle with next to no following in the UK - both cars are employed as workhorses and by repairing the vehicles he has prevented the need for the production and purchase of a new car.
I have asked other members to try to provide references for the use of Autoshite within the motoring and wider press. I believe there is also a reference in "The Barefoot Chef". User:MicrashedMicrashed (talk) 17:08, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • The term "Autoshite" has long since established itself internationally denoting a subculture in the automotive hobby. Certain terms coined in this subculture are nowadays commonly used in the automotive media catering to the classic car hobby. If the Wikipedia Gods would do a little homework, they would quickly realise that Autoshite is a firmly established movement recognized way beyond the Autoshite scene itself. Besides, what is the real argument of Wikipedia to delete the entry?
  • The term "Autoshite" tends not to be used in publications due to resistance of much mainstream printed media to the use of perceived profanities such as "shit" - or its derivative "shite". However, it should be noted that an alternative meaning for this colloquialism is "something worthless, rubbish, nonsense" - see sense 3 of the Oxford Dictionary definition of the word "shit" (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/shit=)). However, use of the term in various online communities is relatively widespread. Examples include:
  • The Polish-language comment "Gdzie to polskie autogówno w rankingu ?" ("Where is the Polish autoshite in the rankings?") can be found as a response to a 2012 article on the Polish automotive website Autokrata[1]--Mittweida (talk) 14:51, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Russian-language comment "Автодерьмо это то, чему 15-20 и выше лет." ("Autoshite is what, 15-20 years old and above?") is one of several instances of the term Автодерьмо (= Autoshite) being used in a thread (dated July 2012) about cars on the Bryansk city history forum[2]--Mittweida (talk) 15:10, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Autoshite has been mentioned in the popular 'Practical Classics' magazine several times, members of the Autoshite forum are contributors to the magazine. Also mentioned in the new 'Modern Classics' magazine. It's presence in life is also proven by the existance of Autoshite dealerships window stickers.
  • Delete - non-notable neologism, it seems. However, there may be an underlying notable concept here we don't already cover. I'm not sure. Perhaps a selective merge/redirect to e.g. decrepit car. Wikipedia is not a place to popularize neologisms (indeed none of the reliable sources I've seen use the term), so we would want to describe the practice in as generic terms as possible, with at best a "sometimes called autoshite")... — Rhododendrites talk \\ 20:43, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - the term "autoshite" does NOT relate to decrepit cars per se. Indeed, the cars in question might be in 'as new' condition. However, unlike the vast majority of classic cars that tend to be valuable, sporty or luxurious models or marques, "autoshite" tend to be very ordinary, everyday cars that were once everywhere but have now all but disappeared. In many cases, this means that they are far more rare than their 'classic' counterparts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.47.97.58 (talk) 21:25, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Transportation-related deletion discussions. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 20:44, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Environment-related deletion discussions. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 20:44, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - both the term and the concept of "Autoshite" independently exist in other languages and cultures - e.g. Russian-language blog about an old UAZ vehicle using the French transliteration "automerde"
  • Comment - Note that usage of the term "automerde" and sources which use it are not what will lead to the article being kept as Wikipedia is not a dictionary and doesn't include topics based on word use. Also, social media, forums, youtube videos, blogs, sites using the word in the title, sites promoting the topic -- none of these help at all, either. What's necessary to demonstrate notability is in depth coverage of the subject in multiple reliable sources. So, for example, newspaper, magazine, journal, etc. articles about (or about in part) the phenomenon being described here as "automerde". — Rhododendrites talk \\ 21:53, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Is this the sort of thing you're looking for? Article from the Daily Mail dated 2011 entitled "Reversing the trend: the old cars fashion forgot are now back in demand"[3] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mittweida (talk • contribs) 15:24, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The phenomenon is described precisely by the German term "Youngtimer", for which a Wikipedia article exists[4]. This article is currently - but inaccurately - linked to the English-language article "Classic cars".--Mittweida (talk) 16:17, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Youngtimer links to Classic car#Modern classics, a section which seems to have been deleted yesterday. --McGeddon (talk) 20:29, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Oh... that must have already been deleted when I checked the link. It certainly makes more sense than just linking to the classic cars page. Why would anyone delete it??--Mittweida (talk) 11:29, 20 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - the definition quoted in the refs is effectively a blog with no oversight or credibility. The fact that it has been used a few times in a very niche publishing sector is not anywhere close to notability.  Velella  Velella Talk   11:10, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - it is evident that there is global interest and involvement in the preservation and upkeep of very ordinary cars that are outside the scope of the usual definition of "classic cars". As stated above, "autoshite" is NOT simply another term for "decrepit car (NB the autoshite article is substantially more detailed than the "decrepit car" article). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.47.97.58 (talk) 13:15, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Kindly stop voting multiple times in this thread (as well as adding bolded words, which are typically considered votes). — Rhododendrites talk \\ 13:33, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK, sorry - I didn't realise that, I'm new to these discussions. I assume I am still permitted to respond to comments that challenge the legitimacy of the entry, though?--80.47.97.58 (talk) 13:54, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • No worries. We're all new to these at first. Yes, you can respond to and challenge other people's !votes (we put a ! before "vote" because while we technically cast votes, the end result is not a vote tally but an evaluation of the arguments). I'd recommend reading this section: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion#Contributing to AfD discussions. I'd also recommend, at some point, registering for an account to edit Wikipedia. When these threads attract multiple anonymous users (or, frankly, brand new accounts) there's a tendency to think people are only participating to push an agenda rather than to improve Wikipedia (i.e. because of an affinity for the subject rather than trying to apply Wikipedia's policies and guidelines). There's a policy of assume good faith, but in practice it doesn't always happen. Do with this advice what you will. One more thing: when responding to someone in a thread on Wikipedia, it makes the thread flow better to indent. To do that, just start each new line (after a line break, not within the same paragraph) with one more colon than the person above you. If you edit this page, you can see that I added a second to your comment above and have three myself. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 14:01, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for the advice - account now created :-)--Mittweida (talk) 14:22, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete or at best merge. How many Gnews hits do we see for this neologism? Zero. Precisely zero. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 15:31, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Language-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 15:37, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
  1. ^ http://www.autokrata.pl/news/najbrzydsze-samochody-swiata_s14946/slide_9
  2. ^ http://www.poisk32.ru/index.php?showtopic=2220&st=180&p=71615&#entry71615
  3. ^ http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2057294/Reversing-trend-The-old-cars-fashion-forgot-demand.html
  4. ^ https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youngtimer
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