Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ashraf Abdelwahab

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. ansh 666 08:02, 21 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ashraf Abdelwahab

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Mid-level manager, not likely notable under WP:NBIO. Apparently the work of one SPA. ☆ Bri (talk) 09:12, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. WP:NOTCV, etc. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:52, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Wikipedia is not Linkedin. ~dom Kaos~ (talk) 13:34, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Everyone, This person was the head of a ministry. Not a mid level manager. According to all the references I added to the proposal of deletion discussion. I assume that there were not many accounts modifying this article because the person is currently out of office. If it is not important to document any information about people who managed or worked in governments during transition periods (after January 25th revolution) because not many people modified the article then feel free to delete it. However, I have checked the facts in this article and they were correct. This man was in charge of the Ministry of State for Administrative Development under Essam Sharaf's and Kamal Elganz2ouri's cabinets from March 2011 till August 2012. Cecs2010 (talk) 17:14, 28 November 2017 (UTC) — Cecs2010 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

He was interim head of a state ministry, whose actual Minister of State may not be notable. See Minister of State#Minor government ranks ☆ Bri (talk) 19:12, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Bri, there was no actual minister of state during the one and a half year transition period. He was the head of the ministry of state for administrative development. I respectfully disagree with the notion that his position was considered a minor rank. If you feel that the article is not worth being on Wikipedia then feel free to delete it. Cecs2010 (talk) 19:57, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The burden is on someone who believes this should be considered a notable sub-cabinet position per WP:POLOUTCOMES. ☆ Bri (talk) 22:28, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Bri, I have checked the link you provided and it says that Assistant Secretaries (Deputy Minsters) which are of a lesser rank than Acting Ministers/Ministers are usually considered notable. Therefore, I still did not get why this person is all of a sudden considered a Mid-Level manager. I have made my point clear and I do not have anything more to add to this conversation.Cecs2010 (talk) 00:00, 29 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As would be expected whenever someone has the title of acting something-or-other. The guideline on undersecretaries would apply to the actual officeholder, not the acting one IMO. Notwithstanding, there is an additional caveat there that they may need to be independently notable. But you are right, we should hear from others. ☆ Bri (talk) 00:07, 29 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

One last thing Bri, the individual in this article was a Deputy Minister for 4 years before becoming an Acting Minister for 1.5 years. So he was not an Acting Minister for all of his time as a senior government official. According to the link you sent, Deputy Ministers, as well as assistant secretaries, are considered 'usually notable'. He headed the Ministry of State for Administrative development during one of Egypt's most turbulent times (the transition after the January 25th revolution). I only hope that we preserve some of that history. I believe that the article needs major adjustments. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cecs2010 (talk • contribs) 04:50, 29 November 2017 (UTC) Cecs2010 (talk) 04:53, 29 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I have been saying that I was not going to add anything else but I thought to point out one last note so I apologize for that. Most people who know this person speak Arabic and those of whom who speak English will not probably know that this conversation is taking place. I have joined Wikipedia about a month ago wanting to contribute to Middle Eastern topics but what I am seeing here seems to me that we are having a popularity contest on facts.Cecs2010 (talk) 19:51, 29 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions. CThomas³ (talk) 06:28, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. CThomas³ (talk) 06:28, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Egypt-related deletion discussions. CThomas³ (talk) 06:28, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ^{Babymissfortune} 11:30, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete for the lack of notability and significant coverage as the minister of state. Ernestchuajiasheng (talk) 17:25, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This person was covered extensively in the Egyptian/Arabic speaking media during his tenure at the Ministry of State. The Ministry of State for administrative development was in charge of coordinating the first parliamentary elections after the January 25th revolution. His name is mentioned in Dr. Essam Sharaf's cabinet members of the Wikipedia Arabic article that covers Essam Sharaf's cabinet. Here is a link to the Sharaf cabinet English article that includes Ashraf Abdelwahab as a member of Sharaf's cabinet: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharaf_Cabinet

And here is the Arabic version of the Sharaf cabinet article that includes Ashraf Abdelwahab as a member of Essam Sharaf's cabinet: https://ar.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/حكومة_عصام_شرف 24.123.237.82 (talk) 15:11, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Add these onto the article page then. Ernestchuajiasheng (talk) 13:13, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your note. Will do that shortly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cecs2010 (talk • contribs) 15:04, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Actually, no. WP:CIRCULAR referencing doesn't make a difference in a notability debate and will be removed. ☆ Bri (talk) 15:12, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This person is notable in Egypt and not in other regions like North America because they have not served in a position outside of Egypt. I could add so many Arabic news articles to the page if that is allowed. As well as interviews with major news outlets like Aljazeera and other news outlets. Here is a link to the Ministry of State's youtube page that shows some of Ashraf Abdelwahab's interviews with major news outlets in the region: http://viyoutube.com/channel/UC1LkIgnH14NkGXtahlyQb2w/%D9%88%D8%B2%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%A9%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AF%D9%88%D9%84%D8%A9%20%D9%84%D9%84%D8%AA%D9%86%D9%85%D9%8A%D8%A9%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A5%D8%AF%D8%A7%D8%B1%D9%8A%D8%A9 Cecs2010 (talk) 15:34, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Does a person speaking in their official capacity for a gov't agency become notable? Sounds like WP:INHERITED unless the coverage is about the person. Note this line of reasoning was followed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shahid Saleem Baig (Shahid Saleem Baig) ☆ Bri (talk) 16:06, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There are so many Arabic news articles covering Ashraf Abdelwahab's decisions and their effect on millions of government employees in Egypt right after the January 25th revolution. I have not seen documentaries talking about him personally or detailing his life as he is not considered a celebrity. I feel measuring notability here is subjective for the most part as different people have different ways for measuring notability. I think that being a government-appointed cabinet official is sufficient to be included in Wikipedia for documenting history. There are some city-level government officials in the US that are notable in their city but not notable in the united states. We should not broadly conclude that if a person is not notable in the US-Canada then they would not be notable in their region. Finally, Shahid Saleem Baig was not a cabinet official or head of a government agency or ministry. He was " Deputy Inspector General of Prisons". While Ashraf Abdelwahab was a cabinet appointed official in Essam Sharaf's cabinet and that is documented in multiple wiki pages in addition to external links and references.Cecs2010 (talk) 17:15, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: For all the reasons I have mentioned above and because Ashraf Abdelwahab was a cabinet member in Essam Sharaf's cabinet as documented in two wiki pages and external links and references. I think that we should not compare Ashraf Abdelwahab's article to Shahid Saleem Baig's article as Shahid Saleem Baig was " Deputy Inspector General of Prisons". While Ashraf Abdelwahab was a cabinet appointed official (head of a ministry) in Essam Sharaf's cabinet and that is documented in multiple wiki pages in addition to external links and references.Cecs2010 (talk) 17:27, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_(people), "People are presumed notable if they have received significant coverage in multiple published[4] secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other,[5] and independent of the subject." to show some of the significant coverage in Multiple published secondary sources, I have included here some of the articles published in the Egyptian media about Ashraf AbdelWahab and Essam Sharaf. These articles are in Arabic but please feel free to use google translate to translate each page if needed: https://www.elwatannews.com/news/details/806565

http://gate.ahram.org.eg/News/53108.aspx (Ahram is a major news paper in Egypt)

https://www.elwatannews.com/news/details/806565

http://www.shorouknews.com/news/view.aspx?cdate=15062012&id=e891c97a-5f97-4601-81c4-2c9420530943

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=encP3_fMl50&list=UU1LkIgnH14NkGXtahlyQb2w&index=18 (Egyptian TV)

http://www.youm7.com/story/2011/8/8/%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AA%D9%86%D9%85%D9%8A%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A5%D8%AF%D8%A7%D8%B1%D9%8A%D8%A9-%D8%AA%D8%B7%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A8-%D8%A8%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D8%B4%D8%A7%D8%B1%D9%83%D8%A9-%D9%81%D9%89-%D9%88%D8%B6%D8%B9-%D8%AA%D8%B4%D8%B1%D9%8A%D8%B9-%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%B3%D8%AA%D8%A8%D8%B9%D8%A7%D8%AF-%D9%82%D9%8A%D8%A7%D8%AF%D8%A7%D8%AA-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%88%D8%B7%D9%86%D9%89/470118

http://nnewsn.com/2014/02/who-is-dr-ashraf-abdel-wahab-minister-of-industrys-new-biography-and-information-wikipedia.html

https://hrdiscussion.com/hr31595.html

If you open any of these pages using a chrome browser, you will be asked if you would like to translate the page. Click translate and you will get to see how Ashraf Abdelwahab was covered in the media.

I could add five times more articles if needed. Cecs2010 (talk) 17:47, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

One of Ashraf Abdelwahab's interviews with Aljazeera: http://viyoutube.com/video/HG7-owK2jvY/%D8%AC2%20-%20%D9%84%D9%82%D8%A7%D8%A1%20%D8%AF.%D8%A3%D8%B4%D8%B1%D9%81%20%D8%B9%D8%A8%D8%AF%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%88%D9%87%D8%A7%D8%A8%20%D8%A8%D9%82%D9%86%D8%A7%D8%A9%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AC%D8%B2%D9%8A%D8%B1%D8%A9%20%202%D8%A3%D9%83%D8%AA%D9%88%D8%A8%D8%B1%202011.flv Cecs2010 (talk) 16:09, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I will add more multiple independent coverages of Ashraf Abdelwahab in English:

The following link is of a UNODC (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime) talking about the Ministry of State for Administrative Development and UNODC's efforts to strengthen Egypt's current reporting and complaints mechanisms against corrupt acts. (Article in English). They refer to Dr. Ashraf Abdelwahab as the Minister of State for Administrative development: https://www.unodc.org/middleeastandnorthafrica/en/web-stories/strengthening-egypts-complaint-mechanisms-against-corruption.html

United Nations Development Program's piece about officials from Tunisia, Egypt and Libya Discussing International Standards for Election Management where they cite Dr. Ashraf Abdelwahab's work.

http://www.eg.undp.org/content/egypt/en/home/presscenter/pressreleases/officials-from-tunisia--egypt-and-libya-discuss-international-st.html

Study of Dr. Abdelwahab's work published in the proceedings of the European Conference on E-Government. The publication was authored by Dr. Abdelwahab and MSAD officials: https://books.google.com/books?id=cIkxJXGyhv8C&pg=PA213&lpg=PA213&dq=Ashraf+Abdelwahab+Egyptian+Minister+of+state&source=bl&ots=RgX6ZLipBO&sig=D74woObgouzJsOuk8w8JdtscWWI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwitppDUqIPYAhVJ0oMKHZBCAcgQ6AEIcTAP#v=onepage&q=Ashraf%20Abdelwahab%20Egyptian%20Minister%20of%20state&f=false

The Citizenship Initiative Press conference (UNDP sponsored event):

https://uprdoc.ohchr.org/uprweb/downloadfile.aspx?filename=1236&file=Annexe1

The document includes how the press conference was covered in the Egyptian media. The document is on a United Nations affiliated server. Cecs2010 (talk) 01:47, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. sufficiently important in his own government. DGG ( talk ) 03:14, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz ^Humbug! 06:56, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. J 947 ^{^{^{(c · m)}}} 06:12, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

After adding all the credible references and external links above, I was wondering if anyone who were not for keeping the article above have changed their opinion. I have added many credible resources that were not present at the beginning of the conversation.Cecs2010 (talk) 18:05, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I was wondering if the discussion will be relisted for a third time or a more experienced Wikipedian will close the conversation and finalise a decision soon? I think that we should not keep the nomination for deletion box on this article for too long as it may discourage the page's editors.Cecs2010 (talk) 20:09, 20 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.