Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aroma Café

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Spartaz ^Humbug! 23:13, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Aroma Café

Aroma Café (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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It's a bit tricky to look for references since "Aroma Café" is, it turns out, a pretty common name for a café. But besides this 20-year old BBC story, I can't find sources about this chain and am not even sure it still exists as a chain. I don't think it passes WP:CORP or WP:GNG. Pichpich (talk) 21:10, 16 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions. Pichpich (talk) 21:10, 16 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions. – Lord Bolingbroke (talk) 21:45, 16 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Argentina-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 21:50, 16 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - I was unable to find any sources in either English or Spanish. CJK09 (talk) 22:54, 16 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment – Hi CJK09 See below, where sources have since been presented. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 08:46, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - No reliable sources, no notability. --MewMeowth (talk) 02:14, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment – Hi MewMeowth Is your !vote based upon the state of sourcing in the article at the time it was nominated for deletion (link)? Note that per WP:NEXIST, notability is based on the existence of suitable sources, not on the state of sourcing in an article. Also note that sources have been provided in this discussion below, and more are also now present in the article. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 08:46, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.
  1. Farmbrough, Heather (1991-08-17). "Minding Your Own Business: The apostle of the escapist cafe - A management consultant who put theory into practice". Financial Times. Archived from the original on 2020-05-17. Retrieved 2020-05-17.
  2. Oldfield, Claire (1999-05-02). "Coffee shops stir up McDonald's - Takeover". The Sunday Times. Archived from the original on 2020-05-17. Retrieved 2020-05-17.
  3. Fox, Nicholas (1996-05-19). "Coffee with a dollop of the exotic - Aroma". The Sunday Times. Archived from the original on 2020-05-17. Retrieved 2020-05-17.
  4. Mesure, Susie (2002-02-19). "Caffé Nero pays McDonald's £3.5m for Aroma chain". The Independent. Archived from the original on 2020-05-17. Retrieved 2020-05-17.
  5. Church, Emily (2002-05-10). "Caffé Nero sizes up U.K. coffee market". MarketWatch. Archived from the original on 2020-05-17. Retrieved 2020-05-17.
  6. "Caffe Nero to buy Aroma sites". BBC. 2002-02-18. Archived from the original on 2020-05-17. Retrieved 2020-05-17.
  7. Walsh, Dominic (1999-03-26). "McDonald's buys Aroma - Takeover". The Times. Archived from the original on 2020-05-17. Retrieved 2020-05-17.
  8. Teather, David (1999-03-26). "The Guardian: Big Mac firm in cappuccino takeaway". The Guardian. Archived from the original on 2020-05-17. Retrieved 2020-05-17.
  9. Packer, Charlotte (1995-03-24). "One more cup of coffee - Caf life began in London, not Paris. Now, reports Charlotte Packer, it's here again". The Independent. Archived from the original on 2020-05-17. Retrieved 2020-05-17.
  10. Clark, Andrew (2002-02-18). "McDonald's sells after £20m latte loss". The Guardian. Archived from the original on 2020-05-17. Retrieved 2020-05-17.
  11. McClary, Samantha (2002-02-21). "Caffe Nero Sniffs Out 26 Aroma Purchases". The Caterer. Vol. 191, no. 4210. Archived from the original on 2020-05-17. Retrieved 2020-05-17.
  12. Walsh, Dominic (2002-02-19). "Nero's empire grows with Aroma deal - Coffee bar shake-up". The Times. Archived from the original on 2020-05-17. Retrieved 2020-05-17.
  13. Wendlandt, Astrid (2001-09-05). "Companies & Finance UK: Caffe Nero eyes McDonald's Aroma sites". Financial Times. Archived from the original on 2020-05-17. Retrieved 2020-05-17.
  14. Murray-West, Rosie (2002-04-03). "The Daily Telegraph: Caffe Nero steams into third place". The Daily Telegraph. Archived from the original on 2020-05-17. Retrieved 2020-05-17.
  15. Kipphoff, John (2002-02-19). "Companies & Finance UK: Hint of Aroma cheers Caffe Nero". Financial Times. Archived from the original on 2020-05-17. Retrieved 2020-05-17.
  16. Ritson, Alex (2001-08-27). "McDonalds to sell Aroma". BBC. Archived from the original on 2020-05-17. Retrieved 2020-05-17.

  Sources with quotes

  Farmbrough, Heather (1991-08-17). "Minding Your Own Business: The apostle of the escapist cafe - A management consultant who put theory into practice". Financial Times. Archived from the original on 2020-05-17. Retrieved 2020-05-17. The article notes: MOST management consultants like to believe they could run their own business as well as those of other people - but few pluck up the courage to do so. And as Michael Zur-Szpiro found when he opened cafe Aroma, the first of a chain of express cafes, the nitty-gritty of running one's own business is quite different from the more abstract world of consulting. ... Encouraged by a number of his retailing clients, he started drawing up a business plan in August 1989, working every evening while he was still at the Boston Consulting Group in London. He also carried out spot checks in sandwich bars and on street corners to estimate average customer spend and potential traffic, and talked to sandwich bar proprietors, property companies, architects, designers and coffee merchants. He felt venture capital was the best option for a first-time, high risk enterprise, and he did not have any great concern to own all the company's shares himself. He wanted a partner who would be prepared to give advice and who would understand the need to spend on design and fittings. In March 1990, Alan Patricof Associates agreed to put up 80 per cent of the original share capital. Zur-Szpiro contributed 15 per cent, another investor the remainder. This left Zur-Szpiro with 44 per cent of the equity; his share has since been diluted to 38 per cent following a further injection of cash to open another two shops. ... In December last year, Aroma opened in Dean Street, Soho, London. It differs from most sandwich bars and cafes in the sense that none of the food is made on the premises. Two top London bakeries deliver croissants, bagels and bread at 7.30 am, but the sandwiches and salads are made by a small company, for whom 50 per cent of the business is Aroma. Vegetarian recipes are a speciality. Gourmet sandwiches with imaginative fillings like poached salmon, asparagus and saffron on exotic breads like honey whole wheat and walnut cost from Pounds 2.10 and Pounds 2.90. The classic sandwiches are Pounds 1 cheaper. Oldfield, Claire (1999-05-02). "Coffee shops stir up McDonald's - Takeover". The Sunday Times. Archived from the original on 2020-05-17. Retrieved 2020-05-17. The article notes: The Aroma chain of shops was struggling against competitors but a turnround specialist made it attractive to the burger giant, writes Claire Oldfield IT TOOK Finlay Scott three years to transform the fortunes of Aroma, the London coffee-house chain, so that it caught the eye of McDonald's and became the burger giant's first full-scale acquisition outside its own brand. The deal, which is estimated to be worth between Pounds 10m and Pounds 20m, is made more remarkable because Aroma was a start-up in 1991 backed by venture capital and retained an entrepreneurial feel when McDonald's bought it. For those who owned the business, including Scott, Michael Zur-Szpiro, Aroma's founder, and Apax, the venture capitalist that first backed it in 1991, the sale to McDonald's was a resounding success both financially and because it marked the transformation of the business. Fox, Nicholas (1996-05-19). "Coffee with a dollop of the exotic - Aroma". The Sunday Times. Archived from the original on 2020-05-17. Retrieved 2020-05-17. The article notes: TO ORDER a cup of coffee for most people in Britain is a simple choice: filter, espresso or cappuccino. But Finlay Scott, head of Aroma, the coffee-bar chain, is determined to change our simple tastes. Scott's brightly coloured bars offer coffee drinkers a host of variations ranging from Ristretto, described as a ``blast of energy", Cacaoccino, a creamy coffee laced with chocolate ice-cream, and Espresso Tazza D'Oro, a strong coffee topped with whipped cream. ... But Aroma remains the most innovative, incorporating a flourishing food business serving unusual sandwiches such as turkey and red cabbage. It was founded by Michael Zur Szpiro, a Swiss national, in 1991. He had seen the success of American chains such as Starbucks and believed there was an opportunity for a similar chain in Britain. Mesure, Susie (2002-02-19). "Caffé Nero pays McDonald's £3.5m for Aroma chain". The Independent. Archived from the original on 2020-05-17. Retrieved 2020-05-17. The article notes: Caffé Nero edged past Coffee Republic yesterday to become Britain's largest independent coffee bar operator with the purchase of 26 Aroma sites from McDonald's, the fast-food giant. The Italian-styled chain is believed to have paid about £3.5m for the Aroma units, which McDonald's bought for £10.5m in 2000. The deal, expected to complete next month, will give Caffé Nero 107 outlets, just ahead of Coffee Republic's 105. Church, Emily (2002-05-10). "Caffé Nero sizes up U.K. coffee market". MarketWatch. Archived from the original on 2020-05-17. Retrieved 2020-05-17. The article notes: Caffé Nero (CFN), the No. 3 chain in the U.K., with 108 outlets, just closed its acquisition of McDonald's MCD, -0.91% Aroma coffee chain in the U.K. Caffé Nero is expected to pay around £2.45 million ($3.6 million) for the 31 stores, or around £80,000 an outlet. In the end, including the £60,000 Caffé Nero will spend, on average, to make over the Aromas, Caffé Nero will end up paying less than the average cost of around £200,000 to start from scratch. A new Starbucks outlet is estimated to cost at least a third more, on average. "Caffe Nero to buy Aroma sites". BBC. 2002-02-18. Archived from the original on 2020-05-17. Retrieved 2020-05-17. The article notes: Italian-styled coffee bar chain Caffe Nero says it has signed a preliminary agreement to buy 26 Aroma coffee bars from McDonalds. ... No details of what Caffe Nero expects to pay for the 26 outlets, which form part but not all of the Aroma chain, were given. Walsh, Dominic (1999-03-26). "McDonald's buys Aroma - Takeover". The Times. Archived from the original on 2020-05-17. Retrieved 2020-05-17. The article notes: MCDONALD'S, the world's largest fast food operator with more than 24,800 restaurants in 115 countries, has acquired Aroma, the 23-strong London cafe chain, with a view to developing it into a national - possibly even an international - brand. ... Aroma, which was founded in 1991 by Michael Zur-Szpiro, a Swiss management consultant, will continue to operate under a separate brand and management team. David Gerrard, group accountant for McDonald's UK, is to become managing director of Aroma. ... While the burger group's 930 UK restaurants have annual sales of Pounds 1.2 billion, Aroma has a turnover of about Pounds 10 million, generating cash of Pounds 1 million and breaking even at the bottom line. McDonald's, which has plans for 100 new burger restaurants in the UK this year, reckons that there is scope for a further 250 cafes. Teather, David (1999-03-26). "The Guardian: Big Mac firm in cappuccino takeaway". The Guardian. Archived from the original on 2020-05-17. Retrieved 2020-05-17. The article notes: McDONALD'S, the burger restaurateur, has paid A10 million for Aroma, a chain of coffee shops established eight years ago by a Swiss businessman living in London. Michael Zur-Szpiro founded his first cafe in Dean Street, Soho, in 1990 with backing from venture capital firm Apax Partners. The founder retained around 10 per cent of the company prior to the sale and finds his name added to the growing list of coffee millionaires. ... The acquisition is the first time McDonald's has bought another chain outside the US with the aim of developing it as a separate brand. The burger chain will keep the Aroma name and hopes to expand the concept nationwide. There are now 23 branches in the London area. Packer, Charlotte (1995-03-24). "One more cup of coffee - Caf life began in London, not Paris. Now, reports Charlotte Packer, it's here again". The Independent. Archived from the original on 2020-05-17. Retrieved 2020-05-17. The article notes: Michael Zur-Szpiro saw the gap in the market, found a sympathetic backer and in January 1991, as the recession peaked, the first Aroma coffee bar opened its doors. The electric yellow interiors are now a familiar sight across the West End. The philosophy, says Zur-Szpiro, is to "offer people a 15-minute holiday in the sun. The caf is the new pub, an unpretentious and unpressured plac:e to meet. Cafs are a natural part of society in Europe. Why not here?" Clark, Andrew (2002-02-18). "McDonald's sells after £20m latte loss". The Guardian. Archived from the original on 2020-05-17. Retrieved 2020-05-17. The article notes: McDonald's has called time on its disastrous foray into coffee bars by selling most of the Aroma chain to Caffe Nero after losing more than £20m on the venture in three years. The American fast-food empire is selling 26 of its 35 Aroma outlets for less than £5.5m, having paid £10.5m for the chain two years ago and spent £17m attempting to revive its fortunes. Caffe Nero said McDonalds had failed to keep a lid on costs at the chain, employing too many staff and paying extravagant prices for supplies. ... McDonald's put Aroma up for sale in August last year but failed to find anyone willing to buy all 35 sites. The other nine will be sold off individually. McClary, Samantha (2002-02-21). "Caffe Nero Sniffs Out 26 Aroma Purchases". The Caterer. Vol. 191, no. 4210. Archived from the original on 2020-05-17. Retrieved 2020-05-17. The article notes: Caffé Nero would not disclose what it was to pay for the Aroma sites but said it expected to complete the purchase in March. The new additions will increase its chain to 107 shops. However, Caffé Nero will not be using the Aroma name. McDonald's still has 10 Aroma shops. Jeremy Simmons, director of restaurant and leisure property consultant Berkeley Simmons Davis, valued the deal at about £2m. He said that he would be amazed if Caffé Nero paid more than £120,000 for each of the Aromas it bought. Walsh, Dominic (2002-02-19). "Nero's empire grows with Aroma deal - Coffee bar shake-up". The Times. Archived from the original on 2020-05-17. Retrieved 2020-05-17. The article notes; CAFFE NERO may be a fraction of the size of McDonald's but its acquisition of the majority of the fast food group's Aroma cafes suggests that it is rather better at running upmarket espresso bars. ... With conversion costs of about Pounds 70,000 a site, analysts reckon McDonald's will receive less than Pounds 3.5 million for what are likely to be among the best Aroma sites. In 1999, McDonald's paid an estimated Pounds 10 million for the business, since when it has invested heavily in expanding from 23 units to 35. In December it took a charge of $45 million (Pounds 32 million) against its pre-tax profits, much of which related to the value of Aroma. One of the factors in McDonald's decision to sell up was its acquisition last year of a 33 per cent stake in Pret A Manger, the sandwich bar chain that is also a big seller of coffee. But there is little doubt that it also underestimated the difficulty of turning the struggling Aroma brand around in the face of stiff competition from Costa, Starbucks, Coffee Republic and Caffe Nero. Wendlandt, Astrid (2001-09-05). "Companies & Finance UK: Caffe Nero eyes McDonald's Aroma sites". Financial Times. Archived from the original on 2020-05-17. Retrieved 2020-05-17. The article notes: McDonald's appointed SG Hambro last month to sell the Aroma brand name along with its 33 coffee bars. However, analysts said potential buyers such as Caffe Nero would be interested in cherry-picking the chain's stores that would best fit their geographic spread. One analyst said: "Aroma may have to be dismembered and Caffe Nero would not be the only one seeking to buy some of its outlets." Interested peers would include Coffee Republic and Costa. McDonald's is understood to be seeking about Pounds 15m for the Aroma sites and name. However, Davis Coffer Lyons, the food and beverage estate agents, estimated the aggregate value of Aroma leases would be worth only Pounds 5m. McDonald's acquired Aroma in 1998 for Pounds 10m to capitalise on the fast growth of the London coffee bar market. But the US company later acquired a 33 per cent stake in Pret a Manger, which created a overlap with Aroma. Analysts said Caffe Nero, which had Pounds 7m in cash at the end of May, would be stretched to buy the whole Aroma chain. It would also frustrate its plans to expand outside London. Murray-West, Rosie (2002-04-03). "The Daily Telegraph: Caffe Nero steams into third place". The Daily Telegraph. Archived from the original on 2020-05-17. Retrieved 2020-05-17. The article notes: Yesterday Caffe Nero, one of the two UK quoted players in the sector (the other is Coffee Republic), took control of the Aroma chain - formerly owned by McDonald's. The deal catapults them to third place in the market, behind Costa, and of course Starbucks. ... It is rebranding the Aroma chain as Neros, which chairman Gerry Ford says will take only eight days per store and cost around pounds 60,000 per site. Nero has a stronger brand than Aroma. The Aroma deal takes debt to pounds 9m, but the group is very cash-generative and the Aroma stores should help. It also recently secured pounds 5m of extra funding. Kipphoff, John (2002-02-19). "Companies & Finance UK: Hint of Aroma cheers Caffe Nero". Financial Times. Archived from the original on 2020-05-17. Retrieved 2020-05-17. The article notes: The UK's hotly-contested market for espresso, latte, and other premium coffees yesterday lost one of its early participants as McDonald's sold its Aroma chain to Caffe Nero. Caffe Nero, which said it was "cherry picking" 26 of the 35 Aroma outlets, claimed that following the transaction, it would be the UK's largest independent coffee bar chain, overtaking Coffee Republic. The Aroma deal came as Caffe Nero reported a jump in interim sales and narrowed losses. In the six months to November 30, the chain's sales rose by 68 per cent to Pounds 11.3m, while the pre-tax loss dropped to Pounds 760,000 (Pounds 868,000). Ritson, Alex (2001-08-27). "McDonalds to sell Aroma". BBC. Archived from the original on 2020-05-17. Retrieved 2020-05-17. The article notes: American fast-food chain McDonalds is to sell its up-market Aroma coffee shop chain in the UK. The 35 Aroma coffee shops are expected to fetch over $20m (£15m). ... The $14.5m investment by McDonalds in Aroma in 1999 was then seen as an attempt to diversify out of burgers. ... These healthy sandwich bars also sell coffee so Aroma's specialist coffee bars appear to have become surplus to McDonalds requirements. Added to this the coffee market in the UK is chronically overcrowded.

  There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Aroma Café to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".

  Cunard (talk) 09:58, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• comment in multiple AfDs, you have been using form letter template "There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow (fill in the blank) to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject" and dumping a long list of references, but you haven't been making any improvements to the article itself with those sources. Graywalls (talk) 10:44, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• I wish I had the time to both find sources and rewrite every article at every AfD I participate in. But I do not. Cunard (talk) 11:29, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• There is no requirement that participants in AFD discussions are then somehow obligated to edit articles, nor should there be. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 08:49, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• delete a lot of routine coverage. WP:MILL. Graywalls (talk) 10:48, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• The subject received non-routine coverage between 1991 and 2002 in news articles that provide analysis of the company. Aroma was purchased by McDonald's in 1999. That Aroma had the distinction of being the first acquisition outside the United States that McDonald's wanted to develop as a separate brand makes Aroma not routine or run-of-the-mill.

  A 1991 Financial Times article provided a detailed profile and analysis of the company.

  A 1996 Sunday Times article noted, "[A list of companies] have all entered the thriving coffee-shop market. ... Aroma remains the most innovative, incorporating a flourishing food business serving unusual sandwiches such as turkey and red cabbage."

  A 1999 Sunday Times article noted, "The Aroma chain of shops was struggling against competitors but a turnround specialist made it attractive to the burger giant" (McDonald's).

  A 1999 The Guardian article noted, "The acquisition is the first time McDonald's has bought another chain outside the US with the aim of developing it as a separate brand."

  A 2002 The Guardian article noted, "McDonald's has called time on its disastrous foray into coffee bars by selling most of the Aroma chain to Caffe Nero after losing more than £20m on the venture in three years."

  Cunard (talk) 11:29, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: Even if Aroma Café were found to be non-notable, deletion is an inadvisable approach when per the policies WP:PRESERVE and Wikipedia:Deletion policy#Alternatives to deletion, there are alternatives to deletion like merging. Aroma Café was acquired by McDonald's in 1999. McDonald's sold Aroma Café to Caffè Nero in 2002. The article can be merged to either McDonald's or Caffé Nero.

  Cunard (talk) 11:29, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

According to the article McDonald's only owned a small share of the company and it's current parent company is Freddo. Which is neither Caffe Nero, nor does it seem to have a Wikipedia article. So, neither of those are viable merge options. --Adamant1 (talk) 10:21, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The article had some errors. McDonald's owned Aroma Café in its entirety between 1999 and early 2002. McDonald's sold the UK branches to Caffè Nero in 2002 and the Argentine branches to the ice cream chain Freddo in 2004. In the UK, Caffè Nero rebranded Aroma Café to the name Neros in 2002, while in Argentina, Freddo was still operating Aroma under that brand name as of this 2018 article in La Nación.

Based on this, I consider McDonald's and Caffè Nero to be reasonable merge targets if Aroma Café is determined not to be notable because the UK Aroma branches were last owned by Caffè Nero.

Cunard (talk) 11:31, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Going by your analysis of how McDonald's sold it multiple companies in multiple countries though, only a small part of the article, directly related to it, would be worth merging to the Caffé Nero article. The rest isn't really relevant. Personally I don't think it would be worth it, because you could just as easily rewrite that one part of the article into Caffé Nero that you'd needlessly be merging the whole thing for. --Adamant1 (talk) 13:23, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

McDonald's sold 31 of its 35 Aroma outlets to Caffé Nero (which rebranded Aroma to Neros), while the remaining four outlets were individually sold. The majority of Aroma is a part of Caffé Nero so Caffé Nero is a strong merge target. McDonald's also is a merge target for discussion of McDonald's management of Aroma.

I substantially expanded the article with the sources, so I would prefer that Aroma Café remain a standalone article to present an overview of Aroma's history in one place. This is preferable to merging some material about Aroma Café to Caffé Nero and some to McDonald's.

Cunard (talk) 06:34, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep per above. TheImaCow (talk) 13:32, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Although there does seem to be some coverage about the company, it seems to all be about mergers. Which according to NCORP is trivial coverage. that doesn't establish notability. and rightly so IMO. A company isn't necessarily notable for being bought or sold, because acquisitions are pretty run of the mill in the corporate world. Even if a company like McDonald's is involved in it. There is no notability by association. Also, An article that just says "the company was bought by McDonald's, who then sold it to Caffe Nero" Wouldn't be much of an article. There doesn't seem to be anything else about them though. Which is also why I'm not voting merge, because there isn't anything to merge. Plus, right now it's not owned by either McDonald's or Caffe Nero anyway and there isn't an article about it's current parent company to merge it with. --Adamant1 (talk) 21:18, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• A 1991 article in the Financial Times and a 1996 article in The Sunday Times are about Aroma Café and were written before the acquisitions began in 1999:
  1. Farmbrough, Heather (1991-08-17). "Minding Your Own Business: The apostle of the escapist cafe - A management consultant who put theory into practice". Financial Times. Archived from the original on 2020-05-17. Retrieved 2020-05-17.
  2. Fox, Nicholas (1996-05-19). "Coffee with a dollop of the exotic - Aroma". The Sunday Times. Archived from the original on 2020-05-17. Retrieved 2020-05-17.
  Cunard (talk) 06:34, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: I rewrote the article. The article includes detailed analysis from reliable sources about Aroma Café.

  The body of the article previously was only 84 words long. It is now 1,350 words long.

  The article previously had only one source. It now has 20 sources.

  Cunard (talk) 11:31, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete , Per above , not notable. Alex-h (talk) 12:23, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment: I expanded the article after finding more sources that are not about acquisitions:
  1. Biderman, Bob (c. 1994). "The Aroma Café". Café Magazine. ISSN 1360-6875. Archived from the original on 2020-05-21. Retrieved 2020-05-21.
  2. "Sweet smell of success for ORMS's Aroma chain". Architects' Journal. 199: 25. 1994-03-30. Retrieved 2020-05-21.
  3. Krieger, Candice (2007-03-16). "Mr Aroma's £10m brew". The Jewish Chronicle. Retrieved 2020-05-21 – via PressReader.
  Cunard (talk) 08:34, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep I am a pragmatist. The scope of an encylopedia is to summarise knowledge. The article is relevant for urban geographers and sociologits or scholars in marketing, business, and cultural history. The brand is not anymore existing and I don’t see any risk of indirected promotion or advertising. Indeed, I agree with Cunard, WP:PRESERVE should prevail.Postconfused (talk) 16:20, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Id love to know what in the article you think would be important to cultural history scholars. Let alone how that reading would fit with any guideline for what qualifies as a notable article. Especially consider even with the article expanded its still mostly extremely trivial run of the mill information that would fit any conpany. Seeds funding rounds, what the founder of coffee in the UK etc etc. Non of that is culturally important. This isnt a encyclopedia mainly for scholars or marketers anyway though even if it was and a general audience doesn't care about that stuff. Adamant1 (talk) 20:32, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Adamant1 It is a very good question! There is a correlation between coffee shops and urban gentrification. The opening of coffe shops and more generally Starbucks is a leading indicator of gentrification. There is a quite large litterature about this phenomenon. See How to Know If Your Neighborhood Is Being Gentrified, A Brief History of the Coffee Shop as a Symbol for Gentrification, or Filtered: Coffee, the Café and the 21st-Century City. Full Discosure: I always disagree with Cunard, it is the first time ever we agree on something. I don't like reference bombings. Wikipedia is not Google. I also use special care with articles related to existing brands, companies, living persons to avoid advertising or spinning. Finally, I agree with you if the article is kept it must be tagged with copy edit. I make typos and mistakes when I write, but it is not a justufication to write a poor article. Articles should be always correct, concise, comprehensible, and consistent. Postconfused (talk) 07:27, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oh yeah, totally. Especially if it is a coffee shop related to a church or religious organization. It's the new imperialism. I have a theory that most churches will become glorified coffee shops eventually. Generally though, I don't think anything on the academic/research level can be obtained from Wikipedia articles in that or any other respect. Except maybe as clearing house to find sources. Wikidata is much better for those types of things though IMO. There's also some research being done with OpenStreetMap to a similar end. So, that's my opinion on it. I'm a lot more fundamentalist then some other people when it comes to sticking to a clear line with notability though. Especially when it comes to articles about companies. As they are kind of their own animal and are two often victims of screwiness and extremely bad quality editing. Also, to often it seems like sources are payed or have other shady weird connections to the companies. And it's hard to determine what the average reader will want to read about them. So, I rather air on the caution by sticking to the guidelines. A few weeks ago my favorite bands article had an AfD. I had to suck it up and see it get deleted because I couldn't make a good case for notability. That's life sometimes. Better then the alternative. --Adamant1 (talk) 12:33, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep – Meets WP:CORPDEPTH and WP:AUD, as per a review of sources. Furthermore, articles about the company are not all simply routine coverage about mergers. As a side note, sorry, but in my view, determinations about notability should not be made based upon what the sources "seem" to be covering. Such determinations should be made upon what the sources actually state. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 08:55, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Almost half of it is though. Another 1/4th is glorified bio about the founder. I'm not against that stuff per say, but it shouldn't comprise most or a good portion of the article. If you were to do a break down, it would be 1/4 founder bio, 2/4 merger, 1/4th founding and something about a building. I don't think any of that fits with WP:NCORP. All those things are specifically called out in it's trivial coverage section. --Adamant1 (talk) 12:33, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep because enough sources have been presented here which established notability. Beritagsier (talk) 19:18, 24 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong keep article has significantly improved, now definitely passes WP:GNG. Dwaro (talk) 11:28, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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