Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anti-Turkism in Armenia

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. This discussion is a hopeless mess; I'm closing it explicitly without prejudice against speedy renomination, in the hope that any subsequent nomination can focus on the content of the revised version, and avoid personal mud-slinging. Vanamonde (Talk) 06:59, 3 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Anti-Turkism in Armenia

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The article has a wrong name, the Template:Anti-Turkism was deleted before, the article focuses mainly on acts outside of Armenia, and it is not explained why Armenians act against Turkish defenders and diplomats of the Turkish view of the Armenian Genocide Paradise Chronicle (talk) 22:30, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Conspiracy theories-related deletion discussions. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 22:30, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Armenia-related deletion discussions. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 22:30, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Whatever topic that may exist under this title certainly isn't the one that was brought into existence by Saotura. Saotura is apparently here as a denialist of Armenian genocide, repeatedly adding stuff to counteract the idea that Turks killed thousands of Armenians in a purposeful genocide. Saotura introduces instead the idea that Armenians are targeting Turks for no reason at all.[1][2] On his user page, he says that a living person, Kurdish nationalist leader Abdullah Öcalan, must be killed.[3] I'm afraid Saotura is WP:NOTHERE to build the encyclopedia. Rather, he's here to push a hateful right-wing Turkish nationalist viewpoint. Binksternet (talk) 23:05, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

How's that related to the article? WP:BATTLEGROUND. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 10:44, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The intention with which the article was created is certainly related to the article. Lennart97 (talk) 13:13, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Could not have explained it better than Binksternet above. Lennart97 (talk) 23:22, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The nominator (User:Paradise Chronicle) has just now all but blanked the article. I don't think that's helpful for the AfD discussion, and will likely lead to an edit war with the original author. In any case, subsequent participants in this discussion might want to take into the account the version of the article at the time of its nomination. Lennart97 (talk) 23:36, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lennart97 most was related to the Armenian Genocide and to events outside of Armenia.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 23:51, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm well aware, and that's one of many reasons the article should be deleted. There's no need to remove the content first, unless you intend on improving and keeping the article. Anyway, I commented mainly to notify others that the version you nominated for deletion is very different from the current version, which is relevant to the discussion. Lennart97 (talk) 23:56, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete This seems to be political propaganda so I guess we should be grateful that there is so little content in the article. If there is a legitimate context in which to add this material then it can be mentioned in other articles. The previous, more extensive, content was a POVFORK of other existing articles. --DanielRigal (talk) 23:43, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete WP is not a platform for nationalistic propaganda Addictedtohistory (talk) 00:07, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Discrimination-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 03:47, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Turkey-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 03:47, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I propose to revert Saotora's edits. He redirected Anti-Azerbaijani sentiment in Armenia to here, and copy pasted the text from there, also making the additions that you all oppose. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 10:44, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In general, the article mentions unnecessary stuff about the Armenia–Turkey relations. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 10:45, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The article and the topic itself are relevant, though Saotura's edits are problematic. I agree with Solavirum above, that we need to revert Saotura's edits to the previous form of this article (when it was called "Anti-Azerbaijanism in Armenia", which was much less problematic. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 10:47, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Solavirum and CuriousGolden: I'm confused here: both Anti-Azerbaijanism in Armenia and Anti-Azerbaijani sentiment in Armenia have never been anything else than redirects. It would probably help if you link to the version of the article that you want to restore it to. Lennart97 (talk) 13:12, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Seems I confused it as the current name for Anti-Azerbaijani sentiment article used to be "Anti-Azerbaijani sentiment in Armenia". It seems that most people object to the fact that large portion of the content in this page aren't actually about the article topic (in particular, most are related to anti-turkism by Armenians everywhere, not just in Armenia). Apart from that, actually related content in the article seems well-sourced, so we can just remove the irrelevant content and Keep. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 13:58, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Removing un- or poorly sourced content doesn't solve the POV issue, though. Just for example: the section on WW1 is well-sourced, but is heavily biased as it fails to mention these events happened in the context of the Armenian genocide. The same goes for listing every single Armenian massacre of Azerbaijanis in the Karabakh war while failing to provide any context on said war. While sourced, I don't think anyone would argue that these sections present a neutral point of view. Also, Anti-Azerbaijani sentiment's section on Armenia does a fine job of presenting the topic in a neutral manner, so I wonder why a separate article is needed. Lennart97 (talk) 14:17, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

These are not hard to WP:BOLD. Can you say the same about this though. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 17:13, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Anti-Armenian sentiment in Azerbaijan seems like a decent article to me, which places events in context instead of just pushing POV. But that is not the article under discussion here (see WP:WHATABOUT). If you feel it needs to be improved, you can start a discussion at its talk page or some other appropriate place. Lennart97 (talk) 17:31, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Political propaganda, no additional value for Wikipedia. -- PhJ (talk) 17:05, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, per Lennart97. Can easliy be redirected to Anti-Azerbaijani sentiment#Armenia. Eurofan88 (talk) 17:49, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's not a bad proposal. But we'd had to copy some info from there first, I think. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 18:17, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

*Delete Full of nationalistic propaganda. --Steverci (talk) 00:45, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(NOTE: strike double vote)
Delete per WP:SOAPBOX. --Wario-Man (talk) 04:33, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete political propaganda that is of no use to Wikipedia and is WP:NOT. Java Hurricane 07:46, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, but re-write using better sources. Anti-Turkic sentiment clearly exists in Armenia, considering all the ethnic cleansing and massacres perpetrated by Armenian nationalists against the Turkic people. Such topics are covered in Wikipedia, like for example Anti-Armenian sentiment in Azerbaijan. Maybe the name could be adjusted as well. Grandmaster 10:31, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Extended discussion

...considering all the ethnic cleansing and massacres perpetrated by Armenian nationalists against the Turkic people.... That's the exact narrative of this article up for AfD Addictedtohistory (talk) 16:32, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It is very well documented, actually, by HRW, Amnesty and many other impartial organizations. Not my POV. Grandmaster 19:40, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Your point of view is exactly the same as Saotura, who composed the article. The problem that both of you have is that you refuse to see that Armenians are angry because of the Armenian genocide originated by Turks; the Armenians are backed into a corner and have been acting in self-preservation. Saotura's article fails to present the topic neutrally, and instead ignores the elephant in the room. It doesn't matter how many respected sources agree that the Armenians committed atrocities against Turks if you don't tell the reader why they were angry in the first place. Binksternet (talk) 20:17, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that genocide could be an excuse for total ethnic cleansing of Armenia from Turkic people. So what if Armenians were angry? Does it justify atrocities against other people? Especially considering that Azerbaijani people inhabiting Armenia had nothing to do with whatever happened in the Ottoman empire. Sorry, but I see no logic in what you write. Grandmaster 10:31, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Being subject to a genocide doesn't justify genociding/massacring/expulsing other peoples. Armenian Genocide was horrible, but using that to somehow justify the fact that Azeris and other Turkic peoples in Armenia suffered in the hands of Armenians years later is absurd and biased. Apologism for massacres is disgusting. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 10:35, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Binksternet, being an apologist for massacres and ethnic cleansing is bad as being a genocide denier. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 10:50, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It seems like the whole application is just Turkophobia. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 10:50, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Can you clarify what you mean by "application"? Binksternet (talk) 21:32, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep There is not any clear reason for deleting the whole page except the deleted paragraph by Saotura; however, a deletion of the paragraph does not mean that it should be deleted. If there's a problem about writing, sources, or information deletion; this should be addressed on the talk page, not in here. The page itself is also pretty long (27,558 characters); and therefore, I'm against to the deletion or redirection/merging. Wikipedia is not for ad hominem. Ahmetlii (talk) 19:06, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Extended discussion

There is nothing in the article that shows IN! Armenia exists a general Anti-Turkic sentiment. There is no mention of the Kyrgyz, the Uzbeks, the Uyghurs etc. who are also counted as Turkic peoples. Armenians are against the perpetrators of the Armenian Genocide, this no-one denies, but that being against the Armenian Genocide is portrayed as being racist, is just Turkish POV. Specially as Turkism was influenced heavily be conscious racists openly competing with the Nazis on who (The Turks or the Germans) the first racist nation is. Then also, there have been no improvements made by any of the keep voting editors. Not even of the ones who also mentioned there is POV issue.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 20:21, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thinking that to link Turkism with NAZI ideology without a source is a bit doubtful, I bring here a source It's on Page 89 and Jacob Landau is one of the better known scholars on the topic Turkish Nationalism/Pan-Turkism.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 21:18, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Paradise Chronicle, I agree about User:Saotura looks like a POV pusher; however, as I mentioned before, this is not a good reason for deleting. I believe that I will be able to rearrange the whole article after doing a research from reliable sources. Then the problem is on the page's some sources, not the whole article since I have even seen a reference from New York Times. I think that the topic itself is notable and has enough reliable references, however, due to the insertion of unreliable sources, it probably made confusion. Of course we should eventually select the reliable sources' informations and cleanup the whole page. But the thing I mentioned is this is not a reason for deletion, we can address and solve issues quickly on the article's talk page. Ahmetlii (talk) 21:10, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. It's clear that opinions here are lining up along two lines. One is the generally global view that the Armenian Genocide was a foundational turning point in Armenian–Turk relations. The other is the Turkish nationalist position that the Armenian Genocide was not a genocide, and was not important in the history of anti-Turkish sentiment. I don't see how Wikipedia can possibly select the Turkish nationalist position as valid. Binksternet (talk) 21:00, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, this article is mostly about Azerbaijanis, not Turkish people, so they're not related to Armenian Genocide. If you have sources connecting any of the listed events in the article (except Saotura's additions of irrelevant material such as outside-Armenia terrorist attacks) that list these massacres and expulsions of Azerbaijanis with the Armenian Genocide, then go ahead and add it. No one here is denying the genocide as far as I can see (except maybe Saotura), so it's not good to accuse people of such things. Refusing apogolism to massacres /=/ Denying a genocide. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 21:33, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, Political propaganda. Alex-h (talk) 15:31, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Update: I've removed all irrelevant material from the page (things committed outside Armenia & most things related to Armenian Genocide). Rest of the material seems relevant and well-sourced. Any other issue of POV needs to be addressed in the talk page of the article and is not a proper reason for deletion. Do any of you still have a problem with the current cleaned-up version? Binksternet, Alex-h, Paradise Chronicle, Lennart97, JavaHurricane, DanielRigal. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 12:00, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Extended discussion, no new votes

This doesn't change my vote, unfortunately. The article is still not a general overview of anti-Turkic/Azerbaijani sentiment in Armenia, but instead a long list of Armenian killings of Azerbaijanis without context, mostly in the form of an Azerbaijani-POV retelling of the Karabakh conflicts. Lennart97 (talk) 13:14, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Already from the lead sentence, a common reader is mislead.

Anti-Turkism or Turkophobia, hostility, intolerance, or racism against Turkic people, Turkish culture and Turkic countries,[1][2] is widespread in Armenia. A clear falsification. Armenia has a good relations with all turkic countries, besides Azerbayjian it's in war with and turkey that committed genocide, appropriated their homeland, cultural heritage and church property (as they see it). The article is heavily azerbaijiani sourced, some sources themselves use azerbaijani sources or base on testimony of azerbaijanis. Most of the content of the article is not even linked to events that occurred in Armenia. Addictedtohistory (talk) 13:33, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You all do realize that some POV issues on parts of an article isn't grounds for deletion? Hope the admin that handles this request considers the actual guidelines including WP:NOTAVOTE. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 18:16, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Still *Delete, still a propaganda page. Turkey and Azerbaijan are not all Turkic countries. Also last time I checked almost all events happened outside of Armenia and not in Armenia. There already exist articles about the Nagorno Karabakh wars or Armenian-Azerbaijani or Armenia Turkish relations, so no need for this one.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 19:20, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Turkey and Azerbaijan aren't Turkic countries? What? Are you trying to say that not everyone in the countries is Turkic? If yes, then how is that even relevant at all? The article focuses on things done on Azerbaijanis as an ethnic group, not the nation. And when was the last time you checked? Because almost everything in the article is about things that happen in Armenia now (which is why I pinged you in the first place). About your last point, by your logic, Anti-Azerbaijani sentiment in Armenia shouldn't exist since Nagorno-Karabakh war articles and Armenian-Azerbaijani relations article already exist. The article's topic is clearly notable, proven by an extensive range of sources provided in the article body. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 19:32, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Of course Turkey and Azerbaijan count as turkic countries, but if one is against Turkey or Azerbaijan due to historic events like the Armenian Genocide or the Nagorno Karabakh war it doesn't mean Armenia is against ALL TURKIC COUNTRIES. Armenia has good relations with other turkic countries.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 19:50, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And how is this an argument for the article's deletion? — CuriousGolden (T·C) 19:59, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The arguments are presented further up. I believe there were provided enough. I was only answering your question as you didn't seem to understand parts of the discussion.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 20:31, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The recently reworked version of the article still contains the original flaw of WP:SYNTH, stringing together a series of violent actions to produce a topic. A topic should come from WP:SECONDARY sources describing the topic as such, not describing individual components. Otherwise you have a list article. Binksternet (talk) 21:10, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Addictedtohistory: Armenia has a good relations with all turkic countries, besides Azerbayjian Armenia does barely have any relations with Turkic countries except of Kazakhstan. Even if they have, the definition of Anti Turkism is more directed towards Turkey rather than Turkic peoples. There is also anti Azerbaijani, anti Tatar sentiment, etc. Beshogur (talk) 21:15, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: Suddenly lot of people popped out and calling it "propaganda". I smell a possible Wikipedia:Canvassing. Beshogur (talk) 21:11, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Malarkey. You have no proof, and I can assure you I have no part in canvassing: none at all. Binksternet (talk) 21:13, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

here you find the various diplomatic relations between Turkic countries and Armenia. Beyond Turkey and Azerbaijan, there is no conflict as to merit an Anti-Turkism in Armenia. Much less racism as it is currently mentioned in the lead. In many countries it is represented with an Embassy. Their relations are mostly not really close, but there is a dialogue.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 21:55, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Looked at the article, I think it needs a cleanup. I see no reason to delete it. Either you delete Anti-Armenian sentiment in Azerbaijan or you keep it. I don't think Anti-Armenian sentiment in Azerbaijan article should be deleted either. This is double standarts. Beshogur (talk) 00:06, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

NOTE to closing admin: ParadiseChronicle manipulating administrators by claiming the term anti-Turkism means anti-Turkism (as a nationalistic ideology) but not "anti-Turk"ism, which means anti Turkishness or hatred against Turks. Can compare to Antisemitism. He also claims Turkish people are not Turkic people, which is absolutely ridiculous. Beshogur (talk) 21:20, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per WP:SOAPBOX - Kevo327 (talk) 22:21, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per WP:SOAPBOX and whatnot. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:41, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete The entire page is inherently irrelevant material, per WP:PLOT. --Steverci (talk) 02:54, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- NOTE to closing admin Steverci has voted twice. There may be other double votes. Spudlace (talk) 08:14, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - NOTE to closing admin This was a response to the updates. --Steverci (talk) 15:21, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If have changed your deletion rationale to WP:PLOT you should strike the first vote to avoid double voting. I have done it for you this time. Spudlace (talk) 12:55, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

- 2nd NOTE to closing admin Curious Golden (CG) asked selected voters on their opinion after CG made some rearrangements in the article and claimed after the arrangements that the page is good. So other voters could have been encouraged to vote again.
Keep AfD is not clean up. There is a notable topic here that can be turned into a neutral article. Notability is established by sources like Raymond Kévorkian [4] (on the Turkish perception of anti-Turkism) and Gerard Libaridian [5] (on the shift from anti-Communism to anti-Turkism in Soviet Armenia). This is not propaganda. Both Kevorkian and Libaridian well-known Armenian scholars from the French and American diaspora communities respectively. Spudlace (talk) 08:09, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Extended discussion

There is not a single phrase in the article about the (Pan-)Turkism Kevorkian writes about in the linked pages of the book (Couldn't find Anti-Turkism though). Here, Armenian resistance against Turkification during the Ottoman Empire is treated. And names of known Pan-Turkists at the time flashed up during my glance through the pages.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 09:09, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Paradise Chronicle, you nominated this because "The article has a wrong name". Why take this to AfD instead of proposing RM on the talk page? editors here have argued for deletion with arguments like "you refuse to see that Armenians are angry because of the Armenian genocide originated by Turks". What does that have to do with protesters blocking an Azerbaijani film festival? I'm don't support deletion of notable and encyclopedic articles because they have content problems. Spudlace (talk) 09:58, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Spudlace: ParadiseChronicle also tried to delete 3/4 of Anti-Turkism which communist Bulgaria's assimilation policies, massacres on Iraqi Turkmens by Baath government, massacres by EOKA-B in Cyprus were included. Beshogur (talk) 10:22, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The Bulgarians actions were against Turkish people, not against Turkic per se. You can't distinguish Turkish and Turkic? To be either against Turkey and Turkic is something entirely different. Turkic includes other peoples as well, if one against Turkey of Azerbaijan its only against Turkey and Azerbaijan. The also, if Saddam acts against Turkmens, its against Turkmens per se, not against Turkic people per se. The armenians are against who wage war against them, they are not Anti Turkic. Is the USA against the Uyghurs if they fight against Turkmen or Turkish jihadists?, No, they are against Jihadists and not against Turkic people not involved in the conflict. Then if you want to term it as the ideology Turkism, the article must be reworked from scratch, as then it becomes an article against Turkification and Turkish racism against Armenians.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 15:26, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The Bulgarians actions were against Turkish people, not against Turkic per se. yeah because Bulgarian Turks are not Turkic people right? Such a low argument. Plus I advice to learn the meaning of Anti-Turkism. It's not Turkism as ideology but Turkishness. How many times am I supposed to tell? Beshogur (talk) 21:16, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Also I, how many times I have to repeat myself? If one is against Turkish policy or culture, it doesn't mean they are against Turkic people or culture. Then also, if your argument that Turkism is about Turkishness is valid, what do the events concerning Azerbaijan/i do in the article? They are not from Turkey, but are from a separat country called Azerbaijan. There exists an article about the country on Wikipedia.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 01:16, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Paradise Chronicle: you are literally inventing something new. The term Anti Turkism is pure based on Turkish people not Turkic peoples, but lesser extent. Please learn the definition of the term. Also you still claim Turkish people are not Turkic people. Beshogur (talk) 10:27, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the leads on Anti-Turkism, Anti-Turkism in in Armenia and Pan-Turkism say something entirely different. At Anti-Turkism:is hostility, intolerance, or racism against Turkic people, Turkic countries itself, at Pan-Turkism: Turkism applies only to Turkic people, at Anti-Turkism in Armenia hostility, intolerance, or racism against Turkic people, Turkish culture and Turkic countries Then also, if your POV is viewed as accurate most of the article is complete WP:OR as Azerbaijanis are Turkic and not Turkish. second-most numerous ethnic group among the Turkic peoples AFTER the Turkish people per lead of Azerbaijanis. I have actually pointed out that Turkey counts as a Turkic country in this very discussion on the 23rd December. Azerbaijan also counts as Turkic country, but Armenia is not in conflict with them because of their Turkic heritage, but due to their wars. Again, Armenia is against people who wage wars against them but not against Turkic countries or people per se. I believe the further discussion on what Anti-Turkism is, should take place at the Anti Turkism talk page.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 11:25, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Move notable parts to Anti-Turkism#Armenia. Sincerely, Գարիկ Ավագյան (talk) 10:35, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: not the Armenian genocide, but other events should remain that happend between Turks & Armenians. Except for the Armenian genocide, there were massacres against Turks after 1915 events such as even in 80s Asala massacres it is very absurd to link this to the events in 1915 and erase the others between 1800s to 1915 & 1915 beyond today. There has been a frown since the 1800s between two nations. The users who want to be deleted the Armenia section above are with mostly already turkey & turko-phobes.. If I say 2 + 2? to these people they will say thats 5 cuz their emotions are in the forefront. They are not in the direction of logic and accuracy and they want such things to be erased. In short, the deletion of the Armenian genocide is debatable but not entire Armenia section.Cengizsogutlu (talk) 12:36, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Does the argument become more credible when you present List of attacks by ASALA article as Asala massacres? Addictedtohistory (talk) 18:41, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per new edits. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 13:24, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. I voted before to remove irrelevant content. Now that I have done that and with new arguments that others have brought up, I believe keeping the article would be for the best. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 13:30, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep good reworked and rewritten Shadow4dark (talk) 14:59, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 09:48, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment on updates Despite the attempts to make the article seem more presentable, none of the issues have been resolved. There is no mention of over a century of Turkish crimes against humanity, which would show the article isn't about "hostility, intolerance, or racism". There is not even a single mention of the Armenian Genocide. And before someone tries to sneak in a trivia mention of the genocide to try fixing this, doing so would only prove this article isn't about "Anti-Turkism". The article remains a WP:SOAPBOX of selective information from either unreliable or POV sources. The article attempts to blame the Armenian–Tatar massacres of 1905–07 on "Anti-Turkism" with no mention of massacres committed by Tartars, and while Kazemzadeh's claim that "it is impossible to pin the blame for the massacres on either side" is carried over, the sources of Walker and Villari blaming Tartars are not carried over. World War I has no mention of the Armenian Genocide, and the numbers the article alleges Rummel gave are actually from a Turkish statistician which Rummel is casting doubt on. And somehow Soviet Russia deporting Azeris from Armenia can be blamed on "Anti-Turkism" in Armenia. The first Nagorno-Karabakh war makes no mention of Azeri mob violence being the cause of it, such as the Askeran clash and Sumgait pogrom, because this would again ruin the "Anti-Turkism" claim. And the 2020 war fails to mention that the Azeris were the first to target civilians in the 2020 bombardment of Stepanakert, which isn't mentioned at all. Many of the sources are still unreliable. Some are in Azeri or Turkish, others are written by pro-Turkic figures such as the bribed shill Svante Cornell. This article was clearly made (by a now indefinitely blocked user) out of spite for the Anti-Armenian sentiment in Azerbaijan article. He wanted to create an equivalent article for Armenia even though no similar sentiment existed. --Steverci (talk) 19:36, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No. When I reviewed List of ASALA attacks linked during this discussion I saw the example of bombing a movie theater in Lebanon for showing Turkish films. Political grievances do not justify hate crimes or violence against innocents. Armenians are allowed to be angry and in our culture we believe in free speech and encourage people to engage with difficult political feelings through appropriate channels - free speech, art, cinema, and meditation. But we don't tolerate, condone, glorify or advocate for vigilante vengeance attacks. If the sources cited in the article don't support the inclusion of some of this content, that should be discussed on the talk page, not just TNT because it's easier. Spudlace (talk) 06:19, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep with reservations. Articles such as this are always problematic, and they often degenerate into a laundry list of grievances (which this is) with no attempt at explaining the complex history of conflicts between the different groups of people. It is therefore arguably a POV WP:SOAPBOX, but deleting it would simply be a denial that such sentiment exists, and that would be wrong too since I think the subject is notable enough to exist as a separate article. I would also suggest that those who object to the article work to improve it, and instead of edit-warring, agree on a framework so that it can be improved (for example, what sources to use). I would recommend adding a section on its causes (e.g. on Armenian Genocide which is by and large recognised by many countries), and trim the list of incidences, because frankly in all conflicts you get atrocities committed by both sides, there is no need to list all of them, only the important ones need to be given. I'd also remove all content that rely exclusively on partisan sources, use only those from independent sources. It is also too heavily skewed to the Armenia-Azerbaijan conflicts, which is not appropriate given the title, since it is not specifically about these conflicts. A wider view on this is more useful. Hzh (talk) 23:08, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as per WP:TNT. I think that this topic does merit an article, but as of now this is a laundry list of occurrences that do not help in the slightest in explaining the phenomenon in Armenia. A list of random atrocities committed by Armenians contributes almost nothing to actually learning about the topic itself; a good, neutral, article on this topic would be great, but as of now it is just an indiscriminate list that helps no one at all in understanding the topic. Zoozaz1 talk 23:34, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. POV article written by a now banned user who described himself as a Turkish nationalist. T8612 (talk) 14:26, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Lots of claims about this article being propaganda/POV/offensive, but I see a subject which passes GNG.★Trekker (talk) 19:33, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and split I think the article should be split in Anti-Turkism in Armenia (anti-Turkey stuff) and Anti-Azerbaijanism in Armenia. As far as I know, the conflicts between Turks and Armenians and between Azerbaijanis and Armenians are not interrelated. Armenians mostly dislike Turks because of the Armenian Genocide and dislike Azerbaijanis because of the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. Grouping both in a single article is like trying to team up both nations against Armenia. Also, there is no other article dedicated to anti-Turkism (as to the whole Turkic peoples) on Wikipedia, so no common practice is followed. Super Ψ Dro 12:53, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Anti-Turkish sentiment in Armenia is a redirect to this page. Anti-Turkism in the sense of all Turkic people is tough to source, and I wouldn't know which movement or country is against Turkic people in general. That there exist nationalists in almost every country is clear, but their sentiments are (as to my humble knowledge) not exclusively directed against Turkic people but against foreigners of several ethnicities and nationalities.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 15:37, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Anti-Azerbaijani sentiment also redirects to here. The article suggests that if people in Armenia are against Turkish or Azerbaijani warfare, are against all Turkic people all-together.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 16:30, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Anti-Turkism" doesn't mean being against all Turkic peoples, it can be any one of the Turkic peoples. Regardless, I think the article should be renamed "Anti-Azerbaijani sentiment in Armenia" since there's nothing about any Turkic people other than Azeris in the article right now. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 16:34, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with this. We should then remove the second paragraph at the Early period section though. Super Ψ Dro 22:40, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep In an AfD discussion, the notability of the subject itself is the only thing that should be considered. Neither the POV of the article editors nor the notion that it might be propaganda (I can argue the same for ton of other articles on here) is relevant to this discussion. StellarHalo (talk) 11:59, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@StellarHalo: Actually nothing has been done to prove the notability of the subject. It has no where near the amount of coverage as in the Anti-Armenian sentiment in Azerbaijan article, which this article was created out of spite for. No Armenian president has ever declared "our main enemies are Azeris of the world". "Anti-Turkism in Armenia" is inherently WP:UNDUE. --Steverci (talk) 03:06, 3 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.