User talk:Habst/Archive 2

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I saw you do some excellent work in finding sources for some historical Olympic sprinters - it seems a bunch more have been proposed for deletion - I was able to rescue a couple of them, but some I can't locate sourcing for. Can you find coverage for any of these?

• Porfirio Veras
• Jorge Vizcarrondo
• Manuel Planchart
• Souleyman Chebal Moctar
• Abidine Abidine
• Jidou El Moctar
• Hussain Ali Nasayyif
• Hope Ezeigbo
• Eddy De Leeuw
• Abdou Manzo

BeanieFan11 (talk) 18:39, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

@BeanieFan11, thank you for the compliment and thank you for your great work on this as well. I am on a bit of a WikiBreak this week, but I will make sure to get to those before the PROD 7 day window expires. Keeping an eye on WP:WikiProject Athletics/Article alerts to monitor the new deletion discussions. --Habst (talk) 20:38, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

@BeanieFan11, they are all handled for now. Thanks again for the heads up. --Habst (talk) 00:32, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Hello Habst, I noticed that you've been adding this category to biographies you've been creating. First, I wanted to point out that people are not articles. I don't think we have any articles on articles written by OpenAI, if OpenAI writes articles. So, it would appear that that category should not exist at all. Second, assuming that that means that those biographies were contributed to in full or in part by one of OpenAI products, presumably ChatGPT or its derivatives, that seems to put these articles into a murky area copyright-wise. So, I am wondering if there was a discussion regarding how these should be done, and whether any policies and guidelines were amended or created anew to regulate them. Best, Usedtobecool ☎️ 16:47, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Usedtobecool, thank you for checking in. That category should be a WP:HIDDENCAT, it should not be a default-visible category. As a hidden category, it would make sense to track even articles about people, because hidden category names can refer to their members as "articles" even if they are not articles about articles. That was its original intention, as it was used to track usages of the old {{OpenAI}} which I did not create (confusingly, since it was deleted an unrelated template was moved there, but its TfD is here).

Yes, those few biographies (Paola Borović, Patriks Gailums, Girmawit Gebrzihair‎, Simen Guttormsen, Jesper Hellström‎, Mathias Hove Johansen‎, Ferdinand Kvan Edman) were created in part using ChatGPT. They were all tagged by me as such and I have not seen any problems reported with them. All of these articles already had interwiki articles on other languages before the English-language version existed, so I used ChatGPT to translate their contents into English, followed by a fact check (comparing the statements with sources) and often some other touchups as well. I understand that there is a theoretical risk of GPT hallucinating, but that is why I check the output to make sure it is accurate. I find that the ChatGPT translation tends to produce less errors than other machine translation tools I have tried.

There is no copyright issue because the AI-generated text is just a sentence-for-sentence translation of the relevant articles in German or Norwegian, and the translations are also all properly attributed (using {{Translated page}}) to their original Wikipedia authors on the talk pages. My understanding is that Wikipedia is still developing its final policy on large language models, and it is not complete yet.

What do you think about making it a hidden category, and re-adding those articles to it? --Habst (talk) 17:14, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

I think these things need to be discussed in a more public venue. I asked you first in case those discussions have already occured. I will have to ask a few more people and think about it a while before I can suggest how best to proceed. Best, Usedtobecool ☎️ 17:32, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

The category was originally brought up as an example in an unrelated discussion we were having at Wikipedia_talk:New_pages_patrol/Reviewers#Neverending_NPP_backlog. I do not know what direction that discussion will go, but in case you are interested in developments... Usedtobecool ☎️ 17:50, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Habst, so, you are already aware why I am concerned about usage of LLM. Putting that aside, since that will get decided when that gets decided, in my opinion, if you are translating from another language with the help of chatGPT, you should note in the edit summary of the first output that you publish here, that it's a translation, the page of which it is a translation, and the fact that that translation was achieved with help of chatGPT, then checked manually for accuracy. Not only would that cover all the bases with regard to attribution, the transparency would help other editors who come across such articles. I do not have any problems with having a hidden category of that kind, but I also do not know much about hidden categories and practices surrounding them. So, it may be best to ask people familiar with categorisation first. Regards! Usedtobecool ☎️ 02:08, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

@Usedtobecool, thank you, I share your concern and I will make sure to note both in the edit summary and in categorization going forwards. I made the category hidden and added the above articles to it, happy to participate in any future discussions about this. --Habst (talk) 13:59, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Sounds good. See you around, Habst. Happy new year to you and yours! Usedtobecool ☎️ 15:35, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

		The Article Rescue Barnstar
		Your ability to find obscure sources on foreign, pre-internet athletes is fantastic. Thank you for your work in saving these articles; it is greatly appreciated! BeanieFan11 (talk) 19:20, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

@BeanieFan11, thank you, that is very nice of you to say. I'm very grateful for your work here as well. --Habst (talk) 20:16, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article 2015 World Youth Championships in Athletics – Boys' javelin throw is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2015 World Youth Championships in Athletics – Boys' javelin throw until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.

Fram (talk) 11:32, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

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Hi. Why sync Module:Annotated link/sandbox with main when the sandbox is set up for testing a feature proposed in recent discussion and has initial test cases? This action detrimentally affects efforts to evaluate the proposed feature, and makes no positive contribution. Any competent template/module editor wanting to work on the code will check associated talk pages for recent activity and if there's no good reason not to, will ensure the sandbox is synced prior to testing any of their own changes anyway. Were you under the impression that I am an incompetent or wreckless template/module editor? Fred Gandt · talk · contribs 20:18, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

@Fred Gandt, I'm sorry for the confusion, I meant nothing like that. I was simply preparing to test a feature that I was developing, namely adding a |remove_parentheses= option, and I wanted to sync the sandbox to make sure that the changes I was about to make did not conflict with any other in-development changes. I simply checked the page history and saw the last edit and discussion comment was over 9 days ago so I thought it was not under active development, and I would be allowed to test my changes.

Thank you for letting me know that you are still actively using it, I have since made my changes in Special:Diff/1199334917 but I have reverted them to your revision here, I will test my changes in my own module sandbox then until development of this new feature is completed. --Habst (talk) 20:30, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Hi Habst. I greatly appreciate your attempts to save athletes from AFD, but I would recommend not over-commenting (e.g. responding to every comment that does not agree with your opinion, especially if its an individual vote that is not replying to you). Its tempting, but try to just say your piece in a few comments with maybe 1-2 rebuttals to other votes if you really think it necessary (but I would not do it every time), as some consider your current comments at AFDs to be WP:BLUDGEONING. Just some advice. BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:52, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

• I would also recommend just going for the ones that have in-depth coverage, unless you can find a really strong argument otherwise to keep it (e.g. Abdou Manzo being a three-time Olympian who's called a "glory of Nigerien athletics" is one; whereas Dagiero Dagiero, for competing poorly at the 2015 World Championships on a quota, not so much). BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:57, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

  @BeanieFan11, thank you for your kind message, I appreciate your opinion. I will step back and consider what you have said for future discussions. --Habst (talk) 19:28, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

One way we may be able to get Kimba saved would be to get in contact to some media source in Niger (they would probably know whether he's been significantly covered). I, personally, am not sure exactly how we would do this, but just throwing out an idea. BeanieFan11 (talk) 23:39, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

@BeanieFan11, I appreciate your willingness to save this article. Okay, let's try.

I found this death announcement on Facebook which has 70 comments. I also reached out to WP:WikiProject Niger here: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Niger#Sources for Nigerien newspapers from the early 1990s to 2013?.

I'll continue to look into this. Thank you, --Habst (talk) 01:08, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

I also contacted the author of the German Wikipedia article on Kimba, here: de:Benutzer_Diskussion:Funke#Sources_for_Boureima_Kimba. I saw that this person had created many articles for people from Niger, so maybe they have some knowledge as well. --Habst (talk) 01:23, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

February 8: Hacking Night @ Prime Produce
You are invited to join the Wikimedia NYC community for NYC Hacking Night at Prime Produce in Hell's Kitchen, Manhattan. It is intended primarily for technical contributors, though newcomers are welcome as well! All attendees are subject to Wikimedia NYC's Code of Conduct and Wikimedia's Technical Code of Conduct. Meeting info: Thursday, February 8 Hacking Night @ Prime Produce (optional RSVP on-wiki). 7:00 pm – 9:30 pm (Introductions + Hacking) 9:30 pm – 10:00 pm (Showcase) (Prime Produce, Hell's Kitchen, Manhattan)
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--Wikimedia New York City Team via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 14:12, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Can you find anything on this guy? Thanks, BeanieFan11 (talk) 13:24, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. There's some ambiguity on this person, as Tilastopaja has him listed as Antoine Kiakouama with the same 13 Sep 1948 DOB, but Kiakouama's errata at Olympedia says that may be a mistake. Then there is doubt if any results on "Antoine Ntsana" are for Antoine Nkounkou or Kiakouama, and perhaps some of the results under Kiakouama's name (he is more accomplished) actually belong to Nkounkou...

In theory, the deletion process on Wikipedia should reward such ambiguities, because we can't prove that the results listed under "Antoine Ntsana" or "Antoine Kiakouama" aren't for the deletion subject. As far as newspapers go – Congo and Niger are difficult subjects to research, I haven't yet given up on Kimba above and I do believe that news coverage must exist somewhere. I will try to look into it further. --Habst (talk) 14:28, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

That's confusing...as for Kimba, it looks like it'll be moved to my userspace so we have unlimited time to look. Maybe we could find some way to contact the Niger Express or Le'Sahel (two Nigerien newspapers)? There's a good chance the Nigerien media would know how notable he was. BeanieFan11 (talk) 14:33, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Hello Habst!

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MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 15:20, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

A tag has been placed on Category:2023 in Castile and León indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and removing the speedy deletion tag. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:14, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Hello, Habst,

I see you just created this category. But our Empty Categories List gets issued at 01:02 UTC and it appeared on it. You have a week to assign an article to it so it is not in imminent danger of being deleted. Just thought I'd leave you a note. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:16, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

@Liz, thank you for the note, I filled it with 2023 Cross de Atapuerca and removed the tag. --Habst (talk) 13:25, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your contributions to 2023 Mediterranean Athletics U23 Indoor Championships – Results. Unfortunately, I do not think it is ready for publishing at this time because it has no sources. I have converted your article to a draft which you can improve, undisturbed for a while.

Please see more information at Help:Unreviewed new page. When the article is ready for publication, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page OR move the page back. JoeNMLC (talk) 21:03, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

@JoeNMLC, sorry it took me so long to get to this. Regarding Special:Diff/1211297070, I don't think that having the Results link under "References" is outside of standard practice for Wikipedia; for hundreds of other nearly identical examples, see insource:"reflist results" athletics. So I reverted that edit, but I am open to hearing other solutions.

Because the Results link counts as a source then, I don't think it's unsourced. There is of course lots of GNG coverage of the 2023 Mediterranean U23 Championships, for example at [1]. But that coverage belongs on the parent article 2023 Mediterranean Athletics U23 Indoor Championships, not the results article. The practice of having separate results articles is longstanding, see for example Talk:2018 Mediterranean Athletics U23 Championships#Proposed merger for a justification of this by another editor.

So, I'll move it back to mainspace. We can discuss further on the talk page of the article on how best to improve it. Thank you, --Habst (talk) 15:17, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi Habst - see article for added tag and change. Regards, JoeNMLC (talk) 15:29, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

@JoeNMLC, thanks, I reverted Special:Diff/1212575584 per the results at insource:"reflist results" athletics but I will leave {{No footnotes}}. --Habst (talk) 15:39, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks - still learning something new every day, liking Wikipedia. Cheers! JoeNMLC (talk) 15:43, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi Habst. Not sure if you're interested, but some Olympians outside of athletics have been PRODed by the same editor. If you have the time, I'd appreciate if you could see if you could find anything on them (I will look for sources as well). See:

• Darío Amaral (fencer, Brazil)
• Sultan Karim Ali (swimmer, Pakistan)
• Alejandro Lecot (swimmer, Argentina)
• Hans Hocke (fencer, Austria)
• Andrea Schaller (footballer, Germany)
• Günther Ulrich (fencer, Austria)
• Charles Mahlalela (boxer, Eswatini)
• Charles El-Gressy (fencer, Morocco)
• Lev Martyushev (fencer, Russia)
• Robert Blaschka (fencer, Austria)
• Karl-Heinz Müller (fencer, Austria)
• Heinrich Rischtoff (fencer, Austria)
• Hannelore Hradez (fencer, Austria)
• Hanns Brandstätter (fencer, Austria)
• Richard Brünner (fencer, Austria)
• Bernd Brodar (fencer, Austria)
• Philippe Bourret (badminton, Canada)

You don't have to, but I just thought I'd drop you a note as you seem to have an outstanding ability at finding sources for athletes like these. BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:21, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Hi @BeanieFan11, thank you for finding these and ordering them from soonest to latest expiry. I'm going to a Wikipedia day event tomorrow with open editing so I'll see if I can work on them then, and maybe recruit some to our cause . --Habst (talk) 16:52, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks very much for all your work on this at AfD, but I wonder whether you might add some of your findings to the article? Otherwise they'll be lost to sight once the AfD closes. Best wishes, Ingratis (talk) 18:54, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

@Ingratis, thanks, I would love to add the findings. The issue is all the source material is in Dutch and I don't know Dutch, and KBR.be doesn't provide any OCR text to copy/paste for machine translation. I'll see if I can get a screenshot and OCR it through an external service to get a good translation. --Habst (talk) 20:37, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

@Ingratis I wrote a script to download and patch together the scan and uploaded it to Commons here, but I can't seem to get any OCR program (tried GPT and Tesseract) to recognize the text. --Habst (talk) 00:55, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Actually, I just learned about https://ocr.wmcloud.org and it seems to work pretty well. I expanded the article with what I could, though there are a few more articles to investigate. --Habst (talk) 01:23, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry for pressing you on this - I hadn't realised that you didn't speak Dutch. I'm impressed beyond belief at all the work you've put in for this - staggering! Barnstars don't seem adequate (and not everyone likes them particularly) but they're more than deserved:

		The Barnstar of Diligence
		Thank you for your hard work and persistence in tracking down and making available the sources necessary to save this (and many other) articles! Ingratis (talk) 11:07, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

		The Barnstar of Diplomacy
		For your continuing restraint and courtesy in dealing with even the most obdurate and stiff-necked deletionists! Ingratis (talk) 11:07, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

@Ingratis, thank you for the compliments, it means a lot coming from you as I greatly appreciate your work here. I hope you don't mind that I removed the comment from the second barnstar in my barnstar list, as I don't really agree with the language. Maybe that's just me being too diplomatic Cheers! --Habst (talk) 12:52, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your very kind remark! I'm sorry about the undiplomatic comment (more diplomatic though than some earlier versions) - if it helps, an alt version would be: "For your continuing restraint and courtesy in sports AfD discussions". All best, Ingratis (talk) 17:34, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

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