User talk:Drachenfyre/Archives/2005/March

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Hi Drachenfrye, you've been making good edits, just a matter of fixing the spelling mostly :) I'm not sure why Eleanor and Maud were chosen to succeed William and Henry...as far as I know, Aquitaine was dominated by outsiders (England and France), so it wasn't too important there to have a strong male leader. And in England it turned out to be a mistake on Henry's part, since it led to a horrible civil war. As for Jerusalem, which is what I study so I am somewhat better informed, there was first of all the unusual situation of Baldwin II having four daughters, and secondly there was no specific law or rule for the succession. It was the custom that whoever was the closest relative of the previous king and was already in the kingdom would be chosen (thus Godfrey and Baldwin I's older brother Eustace was passed over twice). 1131 was the first time the kingdom passed from a father to a child, so there was no custom about that particular procedure. I'm sure Baldwin knew it would be a problem, since he took so much trouble to arrange a marriage to Fulk, and I suppose Jerusalem was lucky that there was no all-out civil war like there was in England. I hope that helps...I don't really know enough to attempt to analyze England or Aquitaine. Adam Bishop 06:12, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

By the way, where are you getting this info about Melisende? From the source you gave on the page, I assume? (that is, "Medieval Women, edited by Derek Baker, Ecclesiatical History Society, 1978") Adam Bishop 03:00, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll take a look at those books. About Maud, yeah, it's just the Wikipedia convention to spell it "Maud", we could just as easily write "Maude" or even "Matilida", but for whatever reason we've picked the Maud form. I've seen a number of spellings for "Melisende" as well but that seems to be the most usual way. By the way, if you type ~~~~ on talk pages, it will leave a signature! Adam Bishop 05:33, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia! It has been held by the courts that the Sovereign cannot hold a peerage title, because the Sovereign is him or herself the source of such titles. Thus, the Queen would not be Countess of Chester; it is the Prince of Wales who holds this earldom. The Queen owns the Duchy of Lancaster, but the title "Duke of Lancaster" is not used (again, since it is a peerage title). -- Emsworth 11:43, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Well, the sources I used suggest that Fulk commissioned it (especially as it seems to have his name on it), although I'm sure Melisende knew about it - not like it was a surprise birthday present or something. No one really knows though, only the circumstancial evidence from the calendar suggests it was even commissioned for/by Melisende at all. Adam Bishop 01:04, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The library here doesn't seem to have the Hamilton book you're using, but I knew who he was because I have seen his book about Baldwin IV. It sounds interesting though, I'll have to check at other libraries. As for Agnes, Guy, Sibylla, Raymond, and Baldwin, it's very difficult sometimes to sort out who was a member of which faction and who was influencing whom. You might also want to see if you can find a copy of William of Tyre's chronicle, there is an English translation of it, and that is where Hamilton is getting his information (William himself was a member of Raymond's faction). Also, I suppose it would be appropriate to use the Melisende Psalter image on the Melisende article, although it doesn't depict Melisende herself. I'll add that. Adam Bishop 00:35, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You'll have to ask Alberia about that picture, I don't know where it comes from. I'm pretty sure it's not from the Psalter...it doesn't look familiar, anyway. Adam Bishop 00:19, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Heh, I think you may have seen the crappy hand-drawn map I made...but it's not in any article at the moment. We've tried to find good maps of the crusader states in the past, but it's very difficult to find a suitable map for the kingdom specifically. Anyway, I'll look at Sibylla, thanks. Adam Bishop 04:13, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hi Drachenfyre! Since Adam inquired about the Melisende image I've contacted my source to see if he can direct us to the original art work. The image was found here: http://www.guide2womenleaders.com/womeninpower/Womeninpower1100.htm. I'm still scouring around to find other sources that name that image as Melisende. I'll let you know what I find. Alberia Torkenkluvin 16:33, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)

My source says it's part of the Melisende Psalter, but I haven't been able to confirm that by viewing the manuscript. Do you have any resource online for viewing it in it's entirety? Alberia Torkenkluvin 18:15, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)

The whole thing isn't online, but there are a few books that have pictures (the ones listed in the Melisende Psalter article. I'll take a look at them again when I have the chance, although as far as I remember the pictures look much different than the one we have here. But there were a bunch of different artists involved, so who knows. Adam Bishop 00:53, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thanks! I've seen the coat of arms they have on the French Wikipedia, but we have one too, on Kingdom of Jerusalem. I like ours better :) I don't think it's necessary to put it on every article, though.

What atlases did you find? They are probably not public domain unless they are really old, like more than 80 years.

I've been using the standard English translation of William of Tyre, I should write a proper citation when I use it, I'll fix those eventually. (The Latin version is in the Medieval Studies library but we can't take books out from there.) Adam Bishop 02:43, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, Babcock and Krey is the standard English translation. The Latin is in the Corpus Christianorum series (volume 68 and 69, I think), although I imagine that would not be in a public library. The citation for the Derek Baker book you've been using would probably be "Derek Baker, ed., Medieval Women, Oxford: Ecclesiastical History Society, 1978." It seems to have a further title, "dedicated and presented to Professor Rosalind M. T. Hill on the occasion of her seventieth birthday", as far as I can tell (but I don't have the book in front of me). Rosalind Hill, by the way, translated another crusade chronicle, the Gesta Francorum, it's pretty interesting (not much about medieval women in it though). Adam Bishop 03:49, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I don't have the book but I can look at it if I have time. I don't know about the Cathars though, there are a lot of reasonable explanations for women inheriting property without involving them. Don't get too enthusiastic...I know it's fun to explore theories that don't get much attention, but there is a lot of nonsense concerning the Cathars. Adam Bishop 05:04, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure what to suggest...do a subject search for "medieval women" in your library catalogue, that might be a good start. And look through the bibliographies of any books you find, those always point to something interesting. I have no special knowledge of this area so I don't know what specific books you should look for. Maybe you could ask User:Mississippienne, I think she might be able to help. Adam Bishop 00:26, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I hope this doesn't get lost among Mississippienne's response, but I forgot to ask - who says Boulogne was a Cathar stronghold? That seems very strange, they shouldn't be that far north. Adam Bishop 07:29, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hi! In response to your note at User talk:Wetman, hope you'll approve of the tweaks I made, all designed to fit the article within broader context. Should there be an italicized header: "Main article on the Kingdom itself is at Kingdom of Jerusalem.? I'm not genealogically competent to assess the data in bio-genealogies themselves. --Wetman 09:50, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)