Template talk:Post–Cold War tanks

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New tanks inclusion.

Ok... since the last major edits, there have been some updates- The new Japanese tank and Tank Ex. Im not aware of any others. Do we or do we not include them? Please discuss here. Thanks. T/@Sniperz11editssign 05:35, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think that we would include future tanks only after their completion. test projects are not included for older tanks, and we should follow the same procedure with newer tanks. until these tanks are accepted into service, or at least proposed to sale, they are no more than incomplete projects. One last pharaoh (talk) 17:47, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Al-Khalid back to the Original name Type 90.

Micheal, I had earlier warned you from naming the tank as Al-Khalid. I had repeatedly told you that it's the name of the tank MBT 2000 (Variant of Type 90) in Pakistani service. A new version of the MBT 2000 has appeared.[1] That's the Chinese has introduced a new version. So it's time to revert back and correct all the mistakes.Chanakyathegreat (talk) 07:43, 20 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Pakistani Al-Khalid also includes Ukrainian components and a very modern FCS. It's not the same tank as a baseline T-90, even if based on it. JonCatalán (talk) 21:57, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Type 10

Who is removing the Type 10? The prototype is currently undergoing trials, and should remain on the list. Otherwise, having the K2 up in the list would make absolutely no sense. enomosiki (talk) 08:14, 21 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Inclusion debate

OK, I'm resurrecting the inclusion debate here, in light of recent changes. Which tanks should we add or remove?? If you think any tank should be added, please list them below. If any need to be deleted, again, please discuss... Sniperz11@C S 18:57, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Inclusion Criteria

The previous debates about inclusion criteria for this template were inconclusive... please discuss so that we can create and vet a semi-official rule list for inclusion. Thanks. Sniperz11@C S 18:57, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, definitely. But some of the chaff can be easily weeded out without a guideline.
Rebuilds of old tanks? We have the T-54E (excuse me, “Ramses II”), which was built before 1965! It clearly doesn't belong, since the update was designed in the 1980s, and is not differentiated from dozens of other T-54/55 updates, except for the addition of a gun from the 1950s. Sabra is a more sophisticated update, but it is Turkey's second-line tank.
We have so far disqualified prototypes, for good reason. The Black Eagle tank was demonstrated over a decade ago, and remains vapourware. We also removed the T-95, which hardly qualifies as wishful thinking. We shouldn't include anything else which is "expected to be armed" with a certain gun, or whose "production is expected to start" in a certain year. Either remove Type 10, or add another half-dozen vapourware projects. M-95 Degman is not in service, K2 Black Panther is doubtful, and the M-2001 looks like vapourware, but it's hard to tell because there's so much weaselling in that article.
Items on the commercial market but not in service? Old upgraded tanks which are only in manufacturer's catalogues? Remove M60-2000, which is not in service, or add a few dozen more offerings.
I'm cleaning up the template, based on what I see as consensus and common sense. Please discuss here instead of reverting. —Michael Z. 2008-05-28 17:20 z

Omission criteria

This might be helpful. Let's build lists of tanks which don't qualify here. We can keep building each list so we can clearly see what belongs in the category, and debate the merits of including each category in the navigation template separately. —Michael Z. 2008-05-28 18:23 z

Antiques

These are older tanks which have been upgraded (not newly-built), and are not used as front-line tanks by industrialized countries.

  • Al Zarrar (Pakistani upgrade of T-54/55 or Type 59)
  • BM Bulat (Malyshev T-64 upgrade, in service with Ukraine)
  • M60-2000
  • Ramses II (T-54E)
  • Sabra
  • T-55MV
  • T-72MP (Ukraine)
  • T-72AM "Banan" (Ukraine)
  • T-72AG (Ukraine)
  • T-72-120 (Ukraine)
  • BMT-72 (Ukraine)

Discussion

TR-85 is not included on this list because it is substantially rebuilt and in front-line service with Romania. —Michael Z. 2008-05-28 18:23 z

Prototype tanks

These are not in industrial production or not in active service. Examples may be in field testing, in development, or concept demonstrators.

For sale

Like a prototype, but offered for sale rather than being developed by a nation's military.

  • Black Eagle tank
  • M60-2000
  • T-72MP (Ukraine)
  • T-72AM "Banan" (Ukraine)
  • T-72AG (Ukraine)
  • T-72-120 (Ukraine)
  • BMT-72 (Ukraine)

Vapourware

Not seen.

Inclusion of Sabra

[discussion copied from user talk:Flayer and user talk:Mzajac —MZ]

Hi. Would you please better explain this edit?

TR-85M1 is Romania's front-line tank, with apparently 300 in service. It is a fundamental rebuild, with structural changes to the turret and hull. Sabra is a very extensive modernization to give Turkey's M60 a longer life as a second-line tank, and there is no indication that it is in service yet. We don't include prototypes in the template, or old tanks used in the second line.

If the Sabra is included, then that opens up the field to the others in the list at Template talk:Post-Cold War tanks#Antiques, and probably many more. —Michael Z. 2008-05-31 01:09 z

According to article Sabra (tank) and its external links, Sabra is also a fundamental rebuild (of M60, superior to T-55) with some structural changes. The main guns, fire control systems, power packs, tracks, add-on armour, ERA, engine/transmission, and some of the subsystems were modernized by using new systems. It is also a front-line tank of the Turkish Army. Nothing about life extension. We may not include Sabra if we also exclude TR-85. Flayer (talk) 18:35, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
[end copied]
The article doesn't seem to say that, or at least I can't find the the words fundamental, rebuild, or structural in Sabra (tank).
Regardless of that, I maintain that if we include second-line tanks which are rebuilt models from the 1950s, then the whole list of #Antiques above would be open for consideration. I think the criteria should only allow tanks of older vintage if they are serving in the first line.
I know there are diverse opinions here so let's get some more discussion on the topic. Should Sabra be included? —Michael Z. 2008-05-31 22:50 z
If you include the Sabra, then why not include the Magach? If not include the Leopard 2E (see below), why include them? The Sabra is a M60 Patton modernization kit, based heavily on Israel's Magach 7C, so it's no less of a variant than the Leopard 2E is (well, more heavily modified). Neither are Magachs or Sabras brand-new construction - they are all modifications of existing hulls and turrets. I don't think it should be included. I still don't understand the parameters of this template - they seem completely contradictory. The Challenger 2, Leopard 2, M1 Abrams and Merkava were all developed prior to the end of the Cold War (twenty years prior, at that) - so, why can't the Ch'ŏnma-ho be included? It shouldn't be thought of as a T-62, but based on the T-62 - they were mostly manufactured in North Korea. Other than that, why include the T-84? More specifically, why include it over the T-80? The T-84 is hardly modified beyond the T-80UD (except for modifications for export, which are not yet in service in any army). Just some thoughts. JonCatalán (talk) 10:45, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with most of that.
But the T-84, a front-line tank based on the high-tech T-80 of 1976 (actually, on the T-80UD of 1987), belongs here just as much as the T-90, a front-line tank which is a version of the basic-technology T-72 of 1971. —Michael Z. 2008-07-14 03:03 z
We may also exclude Sabra and TR-85, and keep only brand new tanks (all the rest). Flayer (talk) 22:37, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Question: What about the Leopard 2E? Or, as it is a variant of the Leopard 2 it cannot be included? JonCatalán (talk) 12:15, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It appears to be a variant of Leopard 2A6. The biggest difference is that final assembly is in Spain. —Michael Z. 2008-06-23 15:22 z

Reverting over Sabra

Flayer added Sabra to the template again with the edit summary Undid revision 228928278 by Mzajac (talk)Sabra IS in active servicein Turkey, called M60T.

Please provide a reference, and add it to the article. It currently implies that the Sabra only exists in testing of prototypes, and is expected to finish a production run in 2009:

The prototype was completed and passed the qualification tests in May 2006. Several other prototypes are being tested in Israel and Turkey as part of USD 688 million contract dated 29 March 2002. The M60A1 modernization program is currently in the mass modernization phase. The project will end by April 2009. The remaining M60 tanks are likely to undergo the same upgrade process with more involvement of Turkish companies, upon completion of the upgrade of first 170 tanks.

Thanks. —Michael Z. 2008-07-31 23:18 z

According to Turkish Army atricle: "At present, the primary main battle tanks of the Turkish Army are the Leopard 2A4 and the M60T." According to Modern equipment and uniform of the Turkish Army article: 170 M60T named. Flayer (talk) 12:35, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Then is it fair to assume that the Leo 2 is the primary MBT and the M60T secondary? If so, then should we include second-line tanks in this template?
But that may be neither here nor there, because I can't find any evidence that the Sabra is in service at all. The Turkish Army article only mentions these tanks in passing and refers to the Sabra article, which says that a couple of prototypes are in testing, and the 170 tanks are to be completed in 2009. The only official references I can find agree:
  • “The acceptance tests of prototype tank has been successfully performed. The activities of pilot and serial modernization are still ongoing. It is anticipated that the deliveries will be finished by April 2009.”[2]
  • “The Prototype System Qualification Tests were successfully completed in May 2006. The Pilot and Serial Modernization activities are going on according to the program schedule. The deliveries will have been completed by April 2009.”[3]
Am I missing a reference that says the Sabra is in active service? —Michael Z. 2008-08-01 18:29 z


It's difficult to denote a tank as Turkey's main tank, since they really don't have one. It's assumed that the Leopard 2A4s are deployed to the West, against Greece, while the Turkish Army retains a large number of other types of tanks, including M60s and Leopard 1s. Not all M60s will receive upgrade kits as far as we know from current information, only 170 (as aforementioned on this page). Besides, the Turks are in the process of designing their own tank with the South Koreans. JonCatalán (talk) 00:49, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Adding TAM

I have added TAM to the list because it's a medium tank in service with the Argentine Army and was developed around the same time as the American M1 Abrams, German Leopard 2 and Israeli Merkava. It's in a different weight class and it may not be as advanced, but it fills the prerequisites in regards to its date of service, how far it's expected to remain in service and when it started to be developed. It's no less of a post cold-war tank than any of the tanks previously mentioned. JonCatalán (talk) 04:22, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

According to the article, TAM weights only 30.5 tonnes. The lightest of the modern Post-Cold War tanks weight 15 tonnes more, also having smaller inner space for 3 crewmen, unlike TAM. It means that TAM has much3 thicker armor than all modern Post-Cold War tanks, unless TAM features an unheard-of composite alloys like in 5th generation fighter aircraft. Is it true? :-/ It is a Medium tank, just like the obsolete T-34 and M4 Sherman, with slightly higher caliber. With the production of relatively expensive tanks converging more and more on the sweet spot of the versatile medium tank, the way was paved for the development of mechanized warfare and the modern main battle tank concept. All the other tanks in this template are Main Battle Tanks with much better armor. Flayer (talk) 14:41, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Moreover, all the other modern tanks (or versions) in this template has armed primarily with a 120-125 mm main gun. TAM has a 105 mm gun. (M1A1 and M1A2 are modern, M1 is not. Merkava Mark III and IV are modern, mark I and II are not. Leopard 2A4 and higher are modern, 2A3 and lower are not). That's why I remove TAM. Flayer (talk) 15:07, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, but you apparently missed the point. The TAM weighs 30.5 tonnes due to national requirements, not because it wasn't meant to be the country's main battle tank. I don't think weight should play a part in the classification, if the role of the tank is the same. This template doesn't cover heavy tanks, it covers post-cold war tanks, which the TAM obviously falls into. You are criticizing the TAM on grounds that are based on national requirements, not because Argentine asked for an 'obsolete tank' (which it is not - especially given South American's terrain). Can you not remove the tank until we actually argue about it here? JonCatalán (talk) 18:18, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We specifically changed the name of this template from “modern tanks” to avoid questions of what is modern. Most main tanks are MBTs, but there's no need to disqualify Argentina's tank just because they didn't feel the need to build for the European Cold-War requirements of intensive warfare (maybe this is more a post-Cold War tank than the others?).

Since it is indigenously built in the 1990s, and continues to serve as a front-line vehicle, I believe it belongs here.

(To pre·empt the ongoing battles over particular tanks, I am starting to consider just including everything in service here, perhaps with one or two subdivisions of the template.) —Michael Z. 2008-08-11 00:55 z

What about a Cold War Main Battle Tank template, as well? That way we can link tanks like the Leopard 1, AMX-30, et cetera, and we don't have to worry about them (the Leopard 1 is still in service, and so are tanks such as the T-62 (the Russians have deployed them to Georgia), T-64, et cetera). Furthermore, is there anyway these templates could link to the tank portal, or would there be no reason (other than mine - which is to bring activity to the portal) to?
Regardless, what I think is important to take into consideration in respect to the TAM, as was touched on by Michael, is that because the TAM wasn't built to the requirements of a tank which was meant to fight in Europe it doesn't disqualify it from being a main battle tank (which it is, in the Argentine Army - and is used as one). The terrain in Argentina is unique, especially when taking into consideration the soft soil of the Pampas to the south, the rain forest to the north (area of Brazil) and the mountains on the Chilean border (where this vehicle was first deployed - a reason why it did not see combat during the Falkland War) - it's very similar to Spanish requirements for the Lince, although terrain in Argentina is even more unique. In any case, my point is that it remains a modern main battle tank, and has been upgraded after the end of the Cold War (well, an upgrade exists called the R301 - it's not clear if it has actually be done throughout the fleet). JonCatalán (talk) 01:09, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yup, the whole scheme needs a little work. I suggest we:
 —Michael Z. 2008-08-11 01:27 z

I've made an initial proposal at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/Military land vehicles task force#Navigation templates. —Michael Z. 2008-08-11 01:44 z

Stingray light tank

If we include TAM, we sholud already include Stingray light tank... Flayer (talk) 05:01, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Maybe like this?

Flayer (talk) 05:06, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The TAM serves a completely different purpose than the Stingray light tank. It serves the purpose of a main battle tank in the Argentine Army. It's just lighter than most other main battle tanks due to national requirements. While the Stingray is not really meant to engage other tanks, the TAM is (which is underscored by the recent modernization package which is mentioned by Janes (not in the article because I don't have the source) which includes a new better hunter/killer FCS). The TAM is also meant for infantry support (the TAM/VCTP doctrine is very similar to the United States' Abrams/Bradley doctrine). The TAM is meant to fulfill the role of a main battle tank, not that of a light tank. You are taking this completely the wrong way. JonCatalán (talk) 05:07, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In regards to the template, it should go by the tank's role not by its weight. There are light tanks being developed in almost the same weight class (late 20 tonnes), such as the CV-120 and the LT-105 based on the Pizarro, but their roles are not the same as that of the TAM's. The TAM is unique because of the terrain it fights on, not because of its role differs from that of other main battle tanks on the list. That's the point you're missing. JonCatalán (talk) 05:09, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think, that TAM is a medium tank. It was meant to be a medium tank, and it fulfills the role of a medium tank. Flayer (talk) 05:22, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, in your opinion what is a medium tank? How does a medium tank differentiate itself from a main battle tank? In all honesty, the change from medium tank to main battle tank is just a change in name, just like the change from medium tank to heavy tank (medium tanks of the 1960s weighed as much as heavy tanks of the Second World War). What is important is the role and not the weight class. JonCatalán (talk) 05:26, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
From Tank classification#Main battle tank (late twentieth century) - The term "main battle tank" is applied to tanks designed to function as the backbone of modern ground forces. JonCatalán (talk) 05:28, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Good work Michael... Coming to TAM and the related and ever-present issue of what this template should be, I think it'd be a good idea to sit together and define... something that we've tried to do for some time now, with the discussion always going cold or getting diverted into specifics.
The renaming was the best thing that happened, as it removed the contentious discussion on what 'modern' meant. However, we're still left with loose ends such as the role vs designation, extremely modernized variant tanks...
As for TAM, my personal opinion is that we should look more at the role that the tank is put into, with certain limits - after all, an IFV can't be a good MBT, can it? Sniperz11@CS 05:48, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The TAM isn't an IFV. One of the TAM's variants, which uses the TAM's chassis, is an IFV and it's called the VCTP. JonCatalán (talk) 05:52, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hehe... you didnt get my point Jon. How far can we go in including tanks till it gets too diluted? We may say now that TAM is fine, next, someone will say that a 105 mm gun isnt that bad, after which we may again call in another candidate and say that even though it can carry troops, it can fight like an MBT... in which case, you can add the BMP-3 in here... get my drift??
Exactly!! It is easy to say, that certain vehicle was build due to national requirements to fulfill the role of a modern main battle tank. Someone may say, for example, that EE-9 Cascavel fulfills the role of a tank for Burkina Faso, considering the national requirements (and possibilities) of Burkina Faso. Flayer (talk) 14:17, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, you are again missing the point. The EE-9 doesn't fulfill that role for Burkina Faso, and was not designed to do so. You are taking things out of context and arguing to an extreme. JonCatalán (talk) 17:38, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We can add the TAM in here, but not defining the limits will be dangerous. Sniperz11@CS 06:05, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, which is why I suggested at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/Military land vehicles task force#Navigation templates that this talk page should have a section where it defines the parameters of inclusion clearly. That way we can avoid debates like this one. JonCatalán (talk) 06:07, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Stingray is not post-Cold War. But this template's fate is under discussion at the project page, so let's stop fiddling and take the discussion there. —Michael Z. 2008-08-11 07:04 z

AMX 10 RC

What about this? AMX 10 RC is capable of penetrating a NATO triple heavy tank target at a range of 2000 meters. Flayer (talk) 05:18, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It isn't used in the same role as a M1 Abrams or Merkava either. There's a long list of them. For example, Spain uses the B1 Centauro as an anti-tank vehicle. Yes, the TAM can also be used to knock-out other tanks, but this isn't its sole purpose. The TAM is a multipurpose tank, like the other tanks already listed in the template. It serves the same roles as those tanks in the Argentine Army, not just one (it's not limited). Yes, the TAM has shown weaknesses and its no longer ideal and may not be as technologically advanced as other tanks that fulfill the same role (lack of composite armor mixed with low armor protection (largely due to the weight requirement, but the Leopard 1 has less protection, as does the AMX-30, and they are both main battle tanks - although, of the Cold War), but it's still a modern tank. It's just built to the unique requirements of Argentina, not to the requirements of a European war. JonCatalán (talk) 05:24, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not a tank, apparently not used in a tank role, and not post-Cold War. —Michael Z. 2008-08-11 07:07 z

Suggested name change (again) to Modern Main Battle Tanks

There already has been a discussion about changing the section's name to Modern Tanks, but this is also too ambiguous to the point where everything but the kitchen sink can be thrown in. Therefore, I propose the title of Modern Main Battle Tanks, to narrow the subject down to;

  • Modern, as in vehicles that have been manufactured after 1990, (e.g. - Leclerc, Challenger 2, T-90, etc.) and others dating back as far as 1970's but with significant amount of upgrades incorporating state-of-the-art components and softwares applied to enable them to properly compete with each other. (e.g. - M1A2 SEP, Challenger, Leopard 2A5/6, Merkava 4, K1A1 and so on.)
  • Main, as in forming the backbone of an armed force's heavy armored units. Those that are in reserves or in supporting roles should also be allowed only if they have a major presence, but they will also have to follow the Modern and Battle Tank rule.
  • Battle Tank, as in specifically-designed tracked vehicles that provide heavy offensive and defensive capabilities with emphasis on heavy armor and firepower utilizing a large-caliber main gun and other assortments of secondary armaments. This should disallow other vehicles that may provide tank-like capabilities (e.g. - Stryker MGS, CV90105, etc.) to be listed on the section.

Additionally, tanks that are categorized by light, medium and heavy should be discouraged from being added, although the option is still open if all three criterias involving the Modern, Main and Battle Tank are met. However, with the decline of using the light, medium and heavy to classify most tanks that have been produced after 1980's, this should not cause much problems.

The list of things mentioned should help to clear up the clutter. — enomosiki (talk) 19:44, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments about the proposal:
  • Modern has a very different meaning in a historical context (contemporary would be better), and we've already abandoned the term because no one could agree what constitutes a modern tank (or indeed what is significant, state-of-the-art, or how anyone could possibly evaluate what can properly compete with what).
  • Main is not necessarily heavy—MBTs range from as little as 38 tonnes (T-64A) to 62 t (M1, Challenger) in weight, and there is already debate about whether Argentina's main tank for battle is a main battle tank.
  • Battle tank—I think the more important question is whether they serve with armoured units in the tank role, instead of filling the infantry support, reconnaissance, or some other role. This basic information is missing from some articles, and unfortunately it may be impossible to determine for some vehicles which haven't seen service.
I couldn't support the current proposal. I do think we have had less squabbling over inclusions since the change, and I don't think shuffling it back will solve anything. —Michael Z. 2008-08-27 20:48 z
I've already started a thread at WT:AFV#Navigation templates to look at the whole park of such navigation templates. This should be discussed in the broader context and with more participants than here. —Michael Z. 2008-08-27 20:27 z
  • You do have a point with the word contemporary. The significant and state-of-the-art upgrade part applies to vehicles that have been made back during the Cold War period, but are still in active service and providing major support as of present time. And, yes, unfortunately, we cannot properly evaluate which tank can properly compete with another, but we can benchmark the necessary data, such as firepower, armor, mobility, service length, and so on between each vehicles.
  • I meant heavy as in having more weight than other front line armored vehicles in service with a nation's armed forces. Most MBTs that have rolled out of the production lines since the 1970's are within the range of 45 to 60 tonnes, with their weight more often than not increasing slightly as time passes and upgrades are applied.
  • We should consider the purpose of the vehicle that it was originally designed for, and how they are used during exercises and on the battlefield.
Anyways, this is just something to think about, because the term Post-Cold War tanks can cover an awfully broad area. — enomosiki (talk) 22:06, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Also note the names of other templates (mentioned at WT:AFV, and children of the categories category:Tanks by era and category:Armoured fighting vehicles by era. —Michael Z. 2008-08-27 22:29 z

AFV navigation templates

There's a discussion about AFV navigation templates at WT:AFV#Navigation templates. Topics include style, and the organization of post-WWII templates. Please discuss there. —Michael Z. 2008-08-28 00:09 z

Template:Cold War tanks

I hope you like it. One last pharaoh (talk) 21:18, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I hope Michael likes it so we could finally reach consensus, but what about Leopard 2? Models before 2A4 were constructed during the cold war, 2A4, 2A5 and 2A6 are truly post-cold war tanks (actually, 2A5 and 2A6 are more advanced while 2A4 is closer to 2A3). Should we write Leopard 2A4/5/6? Flayer (talk) 21:55, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, I think the link text should represent the articles, not selected models of tanks, for reasons explained in several places above. —Michael Z. 2008-10-17 22:06 z
Well, the two reasons you provided are the following:
  • The navigation box should not contain two links to one article....Checked, and aproved, the navbox would include one link to one article.
  • The link should clearly direct to a corresponding article ex. M1A1 Abrams should link to an article called M1A1 Abrams. that is not one of the guidelines, but let me discuss it below. One last pharaoh (talk) 22:57, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I do nto think so. The good thing about the Leopard 2 is that it's article is about one tank, and it's variants like the M60 for example. The difference between it and the Merkava, or the Abrams is that their articles contain more than one tank.
To be more clear, the Merkva has four models as Mark 1/2/3/4; the Centurion is also separated into "Marks", but these are based on the very first design meaning that they are no more than upgrades. The Merkava Mk2 is a new design, newer than the Mk1 -it adds much more than just the anti-rocket chain netting-, new tank. The Mk3 uses the same chasis/hull as the Mk2 i think, but also a completely new turret, new tank. I think we all agree that the Mk4 is a new tank. Meaning that while the Leopard 2 article contains models/versions belonging to different periods, it is about only one tank with it's variants.
The case of the M1 Abrams article is some how like if we have all of the Patton models in only one article where non of them has it's own. One last pharaoh (talk) 22:22, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And here we go. The second reason Michael gave for refusing my suggestion is as much as i understand, is that the link in a navbox should clearly follow a corresponding article ex. M1A1 Abrams should link to an article called M1A1 Abrams.
Well, i have two solutions for that, you choose:
  • When reading about the M1 Abrams, you find out that the link Desert Shield directs to the Gulf war article, and to the exact location where operation Desert Shield is mentioned in that article. M1A1 Abrams directs to the M1 Abrams article, but not to an exact location in the article, since it does not even have a tab there, and the same goes for the M1A2. Since "we are not changing articles for NavBoxs", the link would be M1A1 Abrams, and because we should not include two links that link to the same article, we would follow the very simple way; Abrams M1A1/M1A2.
  • The second solution is that we give each tank in the Abrams article a sub title, if not a new article, so that links would at least point to a specific place where they are mentioned in that salad of informations ! For the Merkva, see the magic; Merkava III directs to the exact location where the Mk3 is having it's own informations. the same goes for the MK 1, and the Mk 2, but not for the Merkava IV ! The K1A1 is the same case as the Abrams -it's called baby Abrams any way :D- .
I say we add them the way i explained the first time as Merkava Mk3/Mk4, Abrams M1A1/M1A2, and K1A1 88. One last pharaoh (talk) 22:57, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  1. This is a navbox listing articles. Not tank models or article sections. The context is a Wikipedia navigation interface element, not the body text of an article.
  2. Here you go again, suggesting rewriting whole articles for the sake of the navbox. This is ass-backwards.
You also missed some other reasons. In addition to the problems mentioned recently, there is the inconsistency of listing marks for some tanks but not others. Why on earth would we list post-Cold War M1 and Merkava models when we don't include post-Cold War Leopard or T-80 models? Should this be extended to all of the tank–period templates, so that more articles can be linked in two or three nav templates on the same page?
Finally, this is all academic. The Leopard 2, M1, Merkava, and TAM are articles about tanks introduced during the Cold War, and by the logic of these templates, don't belong in this navbox at all. They are properly linked in template:Cold War tanks—both templates should appear in relevant tank articles, so the articles are already linked in the appropriate context. —Michael Z. 2008-10-17 23:28 z
You have just made one of the strangest contributions i have ever seen.
Why on earth would we not list post-Cold War M1 and Merkava models when we don't include post-Cold War Leopard or T-80 models? I have explained that very clearly.
What is wrong with including more than one template in one article ?
  1. The first reason you gave is just a personal view not supported by the guidelines, and not logic to me.
  2. I did not suggest changing articles for the sake of navigation boxes. I never did, i stated that i do not suggest that more than one time. Why are you claiming that i did over and over again?
Finally, the last part of your contribution does not make sense, since if they do not belong to this template "by logic", then why do you insist on including them ?
Note that you used a term that reads "ass-backwards" in a discussion page in wikipedia ! That is not some thing that is okay with the guidelines. One last pharaoh (talk) 11:29, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I can't think of a better term to describe the suggestion of rewriting articles because you want the navbox to have a certain kind of link title. Of course you're welcome to rewrite them, and then it may be appropriate to have separate links on the template, but it seems like an awful lot of work to justify changing these links.
I'm sorry if you don't like the word ass-backwards; it is not offensive, but it sure expresses how I see this logic as wrong-headed, better than any other term I can think of. You can read the definition in wiktionary:ass-backwards. —Michael Z. 2008-10-18 15:33 z
Of every thing i wrote, the only thing you have a comment about is my comment on your usage of that term ?!
I thought the term was offensive at the begining, it's kinda odd for non native english speakers to be famillier with as a non offensive term. Actually i wondered how would you write some thng like that any way.
Any way, the good thing is that you now know that the logic you thought i am talking about is not the one i really am.
Regarding the navboxes or not, these articles needs some changes, and as i said it requires our attention more than the navigation boxes.One last pharaoh (talk) 16:09, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I thought the term was offensive at the begining, it's kinda odd for non native english speakers to be famillier with as a non offensive term.
Sorry, Pharaoh. You talked about why you consider the Leopard 2 two be one tank but the Merkava is four different tanks—I don't know enough about the Merkava to agree or disagree with authority, but if a new turret makes a new tank, then the Leopard 2 would be several tanks, I think, as would the T-64 and T-80, T-84, T-90, TR-85 and probably a few others. I don't find your explanation clear at all, but this is asking the wrong question, anyway.
I don't necessarily agree with your logic or even to its application to this problem: we could spend all week arguing about what is a different tank, just as we have about what is a “modern tank”, without ever reaching a conclusion. We can cut these classifications as coarsely or as finely as we want. If the M1 Abrams is two or three tanks and not one, then what is the thing which we refer to as the “M1 Abrams”?
But there are some things we can agree on: 1) Israel calls its main battle tank series the Merkava, the US calls its the M1 Abrams, Germany calls its the Leopard 2, and 2) Wikipedia has one article about the Merkava, one about the M1 Abrams, and one about the Leopard 2. A navbox's function, clearly mentioned several times in both the guideline and in WP:NAV, is to help readers find articles, not to name all models or marks of tanks (in fact the linked guideline outlines the complementary characteristics of categories and lists—the latter is an appropriate way to do this).
Finally, I do not insist on including the four Cold War tank articles here: I have argued several times to remove them, but have received no hint that anyone agrees with the idea. I have taken this as a lack of consensus for my proposal, and decided not to waste everyone's time by repeating it ad nauseam. —Michael Z. 2008-10-19 00:10 z
Alright, it did not deserve such argument any way, and since we still do not agree, and since we do not have a majority opinion, I withdraw the suggestion.
Thanx for the friendly civilized mannar by the way; that's what i expected from you. One last pharaoh (talk) 21:50, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Votes

Seams that all points of view are understood. let's now take votes:

I think it's clear that there is no consensus between the four of us discussing this here. We're trying to edit this template by consensus, and a simple majority doesn't “win” the right to have their way. These changes would also have repercussions affecting the other tank–period templates which haven't been examined at all, and for this reason should be discussed more widely, at WT:AFV. —Michael Z. 2008-10-17 23:28 z

Once upon the time, One_last_pharaoh said: "Please try to understand that this is a constructive discussion to bring a better article/template, not a place where you or i fight to get your/my idea used, and not the other point of view".
There is not "my way", and "your way". There is a right way, the way that is supported by the majority. as far as i know there is not other editor, or reader that joined the discussion than us, not a single one, and if there were any, i would have been happy when they state their opinions.
The guidelines do not oppose what i am suggesting -ie. my suggestion that needs the approval of the majority, not just my way-.
I have stated my reasons, you have stated yours, i have responded to them, and every one understands very clearly the two points of view. It is very clear also that you do not agree with my suggestion, so let the others state their votes. If the majority agreed on rejecting the suggestion, i would agree too; If not, then we should follow the opinion of the majority, and let the suggested action take place. One last pharaoh (talk) 11:49, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Missing Tanks in Post-Cold War Tanks List?

Can someone explain why Leopard 2 and K1 aren't included in Post-Cold War Tanks list while M1 Abrams and Merkava are included? All of them initially entered service in the Cold War era and have variants that entered service during the post-Cold War era. For example, the first M1 Abrams tank was introduced in the early 1980s and I assume it is included in the Post-Cold War Tanks list because of the M1A2 and M1A2 SEP variants which were introduced in the 1990s. The Merkava Mk. 1 was first introduced in the early 1980s but Mk.3 and Mk. 4 were introduced in the 1990s and 2000s. The Leopard 2 was first introduced in the early 1980s and have variants introduced after the Cold War such as the Leopard 2A5 (1995) and Leopard 2A6 (early 2000s). Also, the K1 was first introduced in the mid-1980s but its improved variant, K1A1, was introduced in 2001. Can someone explain how these tanks are classified? Sch614 (talk) 16:06, 26 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The scheme used for all of the tank article navboxes is this: each link represents an article about a tank or tank series which entered service during the period in question. But a tank in service during two periods will have both navboxes of course, so there is no lack of links to contemporary tanks. If we included every tank with a variant still in service on this template, then there would probably be more Cold War tanks here than post-Cold War tanks, including the T-34.
If there were separate articles on the M1A2 Abrams and Merkava Mark 4, they should be linked from this template. But the links to the articles M1 Abrams and Merkava should be removed. Any objections to removing them now? —Michael Z. 2009-02-13 17:21 z

The "Cold War tank"s and "Post–Cold War tanks" templates need to be modified

According to Wikipedia article Cold War, the Cold War period is from March 12, 1947 to December 26, 1991. Some main battle tank articles use the "Cold War tanks" and "Post–Cold War tanks" templates simultaneously. To avoid further confusion, the "Cold War tanks" and "Post–Cold War tanks" templates must be modified. I'm a little surprised that none of the people involved in editing this template felt strange about this. Gasiseda (talk) 12:56, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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