Template talk:British Isles/Archive 2

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Archive 1 Archive 2

Title

The use of 'British Isles' is virtually unknown in the Republic, the State never uses it, etc; the problem is a political one, and if the use of the term remains it is due to in part to a historical leftover in 'maps of the empire' and part to the reluctance from some quarters to recognise the changed circumstance. The following comment ignores the restricted use of the term. I'm of the opinion that the accepted usage of the inhabitants of the island take precedence over that of old, whiskery anachronisms. Any statement along the lines of British Isles is a politically neutral, geographic term such as the Azores or Oceania is entirely mistaken - it always was used to reflect the situation when the island was (wholly) under British rule. Modern Atlases do not use the term. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.76.165.60 (talk) 19:43, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Like it or not these islands are called the British isles and using a parameter to hide it and show either a name that is not the WP:COMMONNAME and is possibly WP:OR shouldn't happen Gnevin (talk) 00:04, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

The title of this template is shown differently on some pages. If you believe that those pages are in breach of original research or any other policy or guideline, you should bring it up on those pages. Please don't simply break the template from afar without gaining consensus on those talk pages first.
Bear in mind that this template has included this functionality since its inception in 2006. --RA (talk) 00:56, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
I am aware of how this template works . However removing the title parameter doesn't break the template it just removes some functionality . This is a template issue and should be discussed here and not the individual pages. Gnevin (talk) 01:13, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
Removing functionality break that functionality. Discuss it first with the pages that use it and get consensus. --RA (talk) 06:53, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
Keep as is. Can Gnevin backs up claim of OR with actual evidence? Snappy (talk)
It's is not my job too prove there is no teapot in orbit around the sun rather it is the job of those claiming there is to prove it's excistance. Same here the common name is clear and I see no reason other than peoples pov to hide it Gnevin (talk) 20:09, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
Any examples of what the problem is? --HighKing (talk) 00:04, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
Well the Ireland / Republic of Ireland simply saying "Britain and Ireland" was a problem. If it is possible to remove the ability to alter the title of this template that appears in the text i agree with that. There is no need to hide "British Isles", in the British Isles template. BritishWatcher (talk) 00:15, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
Yes there is a naming dispute but we should us the WP:COMMONNAME not some name made up or some work about name which seems to have no evidence of usage British_Isles_naming_dispute#.28Great.29_Britain_and_Ireland Gnevin (talk) 00:37, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
At WT:BISE I had earlier proposed an alternative: Wikipedia talk:BISE#Proposed guidelines for islands that seeks to avoid "surprises" caused by pipe-linking. Short version: use the parameter to pipe-link to a phrase that includes both the local variant (e.g. "Britain and Ireland") and a short explanation that includes the term "British Isles", for example "Britain and Ireland (also called "the British Isles")". TFOWR 09:24, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
(edit conflict)I've notified the pages you've listed above of this discussion.
Here's the original discussion from 2006 that settled on piping the heading of this template for use on some of these articles.
WP:COMMONNAME refers to the title of articles. This is a case of pipe linking the heading of a template. (Many of the other templates on these pages also pipe link their headings in different ways.) WP:COMMONNAME does not apply. It does not prescribe usage for words, sub-headings, etc. used in articles. Individual articles are free to use whatever terminology is useful or practical for their particular topic. I cannot think of any policy or guidelines that would prohibit piping in this manner. The heading of the template doesn't need to be uniform across all articles because articles don't need to be uniform.
My 2 euro cent is that piping the heading of this template is a practical way to facilitate the information in this template to appear in an uncontroversial way on articles where the term British Isles is otherwise problematic (for whatever reason, the reasons are different depending on the article). For example, the British-Irish Council goes to lengths to avoid the term (and the question of avoiding the term was a notable element in the negotiations to set it up and continued reporting of it). Using the term in that article would be incongruous with the topic. "British Irish Council area" is a prosaic way of saying the same thing, as used for example by the BBC, the Jersey Government and the Welsh Assembly.
Removing the ability to pipe the heading of this template would probably sit well with those who have a limited perspective on these articles and a black-and-white view on how we should refer to these islands. In reality, these topics are nuanced and the question of what the call these islands is one that depends greatly on context. The ability to pipe link should remain to enable individual articles to decide what is best with respect to the topic that they discuss. A one-size-fits-all approach is narrow sighted.
The wider-picture approach, that enables individual article to use a heading most appropriate to them, has worked well with respect to this template since 2006. If it ain't broke, don't "fix". --RA (talk) 09:31, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
It seems crazy to me that the British Isles template does not say British Isles anywhere in the template when the title is pipelinked with Britain and Ireland. Its an even more laughable situation because the term "Islands of the North Atlantic (IONA)" which almost no one knows or uses does get a mention. This issue does need to be addressed. BritishWatcher (talk) 10:17, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
Id be prepared to support "British Isles (traditionally)" or "British Isles (geographical location)" or "British Isles (Archipelago)", But British Isles should be mentioned in the title even if it is watered down with extra text. BritishWatcher (talk) 10:19, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
British Isles Archipelago would be an interesting renaming proposition, it might even remove some conflict. Otherwise Britain and Ireland is used as a synonym for British Isles in some cases so pipe linking then is legitimate. None of the terms in this arena of confusing and highly symbolic nomenclature is ever used precisely anyway. --Snowded TALK 10:43, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

To me this looks like an unacceptable case of forum shopping: an attempt to change content on several articles without discussion on either the pages themselves or WP:BITERM. It appears disruptive to me to make such a proposal in an inappropriate forum and even argue for it with obviously bogus reasons such as a silly accusation of "original research". Switching between obviously equivalent formulations has never been regarded as original research. Our ability to do that is at the heart of our mission to build a free encyclopedia. Without it we would at most be able to build an encyclopedia full of copyright violations. WP:NOR is a tool against crackpots, not against rephrasing. Hans Adler 10:49, 13 September 2010 (UTC) Partially withdrawing this comment, see below. Hans Adler 11:47, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Forum shop is when you ask the same question to multiple talk pages if you don't get the anwser you like. This is clearly a template issue so this is the logical place to have the discussion. As for OR ,for me it has always been about making stuff up of the 50 + pages using this template only a small minoirity feel the need to avoid the common name Gnevin (talk) 11:03, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
Gnevin actually did make a post at WP:BISE (which is where active discussions take place) linking to here, so its not like hes trying to avoid attention or anything. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 11:05, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
Also I only became aware of WP:BISE after an editor link me to it at WT:IE Gnevin (talk) 11:08, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
OK, sorry, then I am taking back much of what I said. But still, this isn't the right place for this content discussion. Hans Adler 11:47, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree with RA in that WP:COMMONNAME does not apply in this case, and agree with TFOWR when he says pipe linking should not lead to a surprise. As for "Britain and Ireland" as this template is about more than just Britain and Ireland I don't think it should ever be pipe linked in that way. Codf1977 (talk) 14:40, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

"more than just Britain and Ireland" – I guess you are referring to Isle of Man? I don't think that's a particularly good argument. The British Isles are dominated by Great Britain and Ireland, and this distinction is a bit pedantic. Hans Adler 14:54, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
"Britain and Ireland" can mean "Great Britain and Ireland" or "The United Kingdom and Ireland", so without context it's sometimes tricky to ascertain its meaning. As for pedantics, I'm sure some editors here feel the whole idea of pipelinking the term British Isles is pedantic ;) Chipmunkdavis (talk) 14:56, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
Your first point is certainly a good one. Since this template is about geography, it needs to be "Great Britain and Ireland", certainly not "Britain and Ireland". I missed that. Hans Adler 15:01, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
Well if we are going to talk about what things "can mean", "British Isles" can mean "Isles that Belong to the UK" ;-) WRT "Britain and Ireland" specifically - although it appears to get peoples backs up (just as British Isles gets others') - it is a common idiom that refers to the exact same things as "British Isles".
The ins-and-outs of what terms are used though are IMHO better dealt with on individual talk pages. Is there general agreement that piping (whatever term is used) is broadly OK in principle? The British-Irish Council example ("British-Irish Council area") is a good example of where it is useful, for example. --RA (talk) 16:14, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
Ignoring your main point for the moment: My point was that use of "Britain and Ireland" seems to have strong connotations of a political, rather than geographical, context, and would therefore exclude certain islands. Hans Adler 16:28, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
United Kingdom and Ireland are the political units. --Snowded TALK 16:31, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
Yes, "Ireland" is ambiguous, so it's important not to use an ambiguous term for the other island as well. Hans Adler 16:43, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
You might want to read up on that in the various histories. Ireland is the official name of the state and I pipelinked it per convention where the meaning is unambiguous (as it is when linked with the UK as its countries). If it is ambiguous then Republic of Ireland can be used. Otherwise I am not sure what point you are making. Britain and ireland is used frequently and cited, there is nothing wrong with its use. --Snowded TALK 16:46, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
Depends on who you ask and the time you ask them. Both terms are ethereal. For example, consensus here is that Great Britain refers to the island on Wikipedia. Fine. However, the Oxford English Dictionary puts it the the political emphasis on Great Britain and distinguishes Britain (an island) from Great Britain (a England, Scotland and Wales considered as a unit). While both are synonymous, "the longer form [Great Britain] is more usual for the political unit", it says. Great Britain, it says, is also a synonym for the United Kingdom. The 2-letter ISO code for the UK is thus GB rather than UK (and to hammer home the fact the 3-letter code is GBR).
"Ireland" is an equally ethereal concept. Like, Snowded says, "None of the terms in this arena of confusing and highly symbolic nomenclature is ever used precisely anyway." --RA (talk) 16:54, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
(ec)Great Britain and Ireland means the two major islands so its not really BI. However we do now see "Britain and Ireland" being used as an alternative to British Isles in Atlases for example (and yes they do include Isle of Man). An Atlas was geographical last time I looked so you can't say "certainly not". --Snowded TALK 16:30, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
Which atlas and when ? As far as I can see there are not references for this Gnevin (talk) 20:25, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
Have a look at the British Isles article and you will find them --Snowded TALK 20:29, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
Which atlas? It's been a while since I've looked at an atlas but I have a children's atlas from when I was four that gives the archipelago as "Britain and Ireland" :-) Certainly though there are maps a-plenty that use it (just walk into a petrol station and pick up an example). The National Geographic Atlas of the World apparently gives the archipelago as "Britain and Ireland" (although I haven't never seen it myself). Their wall maps verifiably do (example1, example 2) - and yes, they include the Isle of Man, the Channel Islands and (explicitly, by showing it as an inset) Shetland. Reference 14 on British Isles (the Guardian Style Guide) supports this assertions: "The plate in the National Geographic Atlas of the World once titled British Isles now reads Britain and Ireland." --RA (talk) 22:57, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
Example 2 also shows France. Its title being Britain and Ireland does not mean it is a title of the archipelago, even if there are maps / other sources covering the same areas. These are used instead of talking about the British Isles, rather than a second name for the British Isles. "Britain and Ireland is an archipelago in North west Europe still does not sound accurate to me. BritishWatcher (talk) 23:44, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

What about: "Britain and Ireland are part of an archipelago known as the British Isles."Malke 2010 (talk) 02:15, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

It shows common use of Britain and Ireland as an alternative to British Isles. The fact that part of Frances is there as well is a product of the general use of rectangles in an Atlas (as I suspect BW you know well). As we have established many times before meaning is not precise on any terms here and the Atlas references are a geographical use. It is perfectly legitimate to write Britain and Ireland and indeed at some stage in the future (but not now) the weight of references may justify a name change. There are no absolutes here and we need more flexibility. In several cases on other controversies that formulation would also reduce conflict and fully inform readers --Snowded TALK 05:33, 14 September 2010 (UTC)


Apologies for repeating the point I made earlier, but there does seem to be a perfectly workable compromise here that is largely getting ignored. Don't use "British Isles". Don't use "Britain and Ireland". Use both. I don't like the situation where a reader clicks on "Britain and Ireland" and ends up at something called British Isles" (and the reverse, should that ever apply). We're not necessarily writing for British or Irish editors - we're writing, too, for readers elsewhere, readers who naively think that "Britain and Ireland" might refer to two states (and not an archipelago consisting of several states). Readers, in other words, who are unfamiliar with the topic and who are reading an encyclopaedia page to learn more. Let's helps them, not hinder them. Telling them that "Britain and Ireland" and "British Isles" are broadly equivalent terms seems to me to be helping them. TFOWR 08:16, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Fully agree with your last statement. Just to get radical, how about removing the redirect on Britain and Ireland to create a disambig page with says that and has links the the island and country articles as well as British Isles?--Snowded TALK 08:44, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
(edit conflict) BW, that's a desperate argument. Of course the maps (both of them) show a part of France. The Channel Islands are a part of Britain and Ireland. They are shown in situ just off the French shore down at the bottom of the map. An otherwise unnecessarily long portion of the French shoreline is included to show them (just as Shetland is shown as an inset).
In any case, there are the prose references that explicitly state the two ("British Isles" and "Britain and Ireland") are alternative terms for the same thing and that "Britain and Ireland" is becoming the "preferred" term. (See some referenced at British Isles.) On that basis, I agree with Snowded in speculating that at some time in future the balance will tip to the point where a move from British Isles → Britain and Ireland will be justified. But not now.
To repeat myself though, the ins-and-outs of what terms are used though are IMHO better dealt with on individual talk pages. Is there general agreement that piping (whatever term is used) is broadly OK in principle? The British-Irish Council example ("British-Irish Council area") is a good example of where it is useful, for instance. --RA (talk) 08:17, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
Aha! It was you to made the earlier request for views on piping. I've looked for policy on this, and can't find anything explicit either way. However, WP:EASTEREGG says to keep piped links as intuitive as possible. To my mind that suggests two good ways to use pipes, and a whole host of bad ways to use pipes. The good ways are:
  • [[British Isles|an archipelago]] - we're not overloading the reader with detail, if they want to know more about the specific archipelago they can click the link.
  • [[British Isles|Britain and Ireland (also known as "the British Isles")]] - the more pertinent example for this template. No "Easter egg" here - the reader is shown exactly what to expect when they follow the link, and learn something even if they don't follow the link.
Beyond that, no, I don't think piping is good - if it's used to "hide" "British Isles" I regard it as bad. And this holds true for the future, too: I'm sure you can all imagine a hypothetical future where "Britain and Ireland" has overtaken "British Isles" as the usual term, and yet we're still having this discussion, just in reverse.
Oh, and while I'm opining - the "atlas" example is very silly. (1) Does "Britain and Ireland" really mean "an alternative term for the British Isles", or does it mean "this atlas primarily looks at the UK and Ireland (state) (though it also has several smaller states for the well-seasoned traveller)". (2) Atlases have a fondness for rectangles: inclusion of France, say, follows from that. In other words: the arguments of both sides appear a little desperate. TFOWR 08:49, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
Well yes and no. Remember the Atlas titles have changed. Ones that used to say British Isles now say Britain and Ireland and in one case (Folley from memory) in part as a result of political pressure. It's clear evidence of equivalence--Snowded TALK 08:56, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
"Aha!" - ? Please check your tone.
I think you need to re-read WP:EASTEREGG. In the case of [[British Isles|Britain and Ireland]], we are simply bypassing a disambiguation page via a pipe link. (Britain and Ireland dabs to British Isles.) The two terms ("British Isles" and "Britain and Ireland") are equivalent. There is no more of a "surprise" than for a reader who thought "British Isles" referred to the UK and its dependencies (another common misconception). That British Isles and Britain and Ireland are equivalent terms is made clear in the introduction to the British Isles article.
The link to maps was in response to an editor who asked to see use of the term "Britain and Ireland" in an atlas. It doesn't suffice as a reference to say the two terms are equivalent. For that, I suggest you consult the references at British Isles that explicitly state the two terms are alternatives for each other. There are others, should you wish to request them. The number of references in that article supporting the assertion was trimmed because an editors thought the number previously used as "excessive".
WTR the substantive issue of piping on this template, see my post of 09:31, 13 September 2010 (UTC). --RA (talk) 09:10, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, the "aha" was a "I've finally remembered who it was I wanted to reply to earlier", not anything else (I'm struggling, to be honest, to think what the something else might be but it's early for me and coffee isn't working).
I get what's happening with the DAB page - my point is that it is not obvious that "Britain and Ireland" and "British Isles" are equivalent to non-British/Irish editors. I don't need to consult anything - I know that already. But we're not writing for me - we're writing for readers who know very little about the topic. Again: what is wrong with stating both usages? Your post of 09:31 13 Sept doesn't seem to address that, simply that piping is useful. I agree that piping has it's uses. I agree that the heading of the template doesn't need to be uniform. My concern is to avoid surprises, easter eggs. Your earlier point, and your point above, don't appear to address that. Remember that we're not primarily writing for readers with British or Irish sensibilities: we're writing for readers with limited knowledge of the topic. TFOWR 09:20, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
What surprise? Your premise appears to be that "Britain and Ireland" is an obscure term, unknown to many. Yet, references say that it is not only a term that means the same thing but is "increasingly preferred" over the other.
In response to an editor's request, I posted links to maps (from a internationally renowned publisher based in the USA) that use the term. Do you seriously think readers of the National Geographic stand aghast before their wall maps of "Britain and Ireland" and scratch their heads? (Incidentally, the 1974 edition of the same maps were entitled, "British Isles".)
Now, I'm not going to say that one term is more exact or more correct than the other (neither are "correct" for a variety of reasons) but there is certainly no "surprise". A reader clicks on "Britain and Ireland" and is taken to the article on that subject, with "Britain and Ireland" bolded in the lede. There is no Easter Egg.
TBH, the template has worked this way since 2006 and no reader has ever raised a concern over the matter.
Ain't broke. Don't fix. --RA (talk) 10:58, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
National Geographic also added "East Sea" to their publications right before they opened a branch in South Korea... Just saying ;) Chipmunkdavis (talk) 11:08, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
Please don't put words in my mouth. I have never said that "Britain and Ireland" is an obscure term. My point is that readers who are not familiar with Britain, Ireland, etc should not have to scratch their heads when they click on "Britain and Ireland" and end up at "British Isles". Yes, the lead - eventually - mentions "Britain and Ireland" - at the end of four lengthy paragraphs. Again: we are writing not just for British and Irish editors, but for editors who know very little about Britain and Ireland. To them, both the terms - B&I and BI - are unknowns. Again: we are not writing exclusively for readers who know about the topics.
I've already stated my opinion on the atlas arguments. No, I don't believe NG readers scratch their heads. But a map showing Great Britain and Ireland (and several far smaller islands), is very different to a template listing many different things.
You are incorrect that no reader has ever expressed a concern over the matter. If that were the case we wouldn't be here, and I wouldn't have pissed off BW by removing the template in its entirety at Ireland ;-) But that's by-the-by - we know nothing of the number of readers who said nothing, but left confused. Our job is to improve the project, not settle for something that is kind-of-OK, kind-of-contentious, could-be-better.
Again: what is the problem with including both terms? That's a robust solution, both in the short-term (satisfying both sides' needs) and in the long-term (adapting to a world in which "Britain and Ireland" has wider adoption than "British Isles"). TFOWR 11:15, 14 September 2010 (UTC)


I do not accept that Britain and Ireland is an archipelago in north west europe. Just because "Britain and Ireland" is used instead of talking about the British Isles archipelago, does not mean it is the same thing. To me Britain + Ireland means either the two islands or the two countries. The Isle of Man and Channel islands are not part of any of those. BritishWatcher (talk) 11:07, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Please alow me to deploy the clue-hammer on all your heads

The template is called British Isles, because it contains all the articles related to the article named British Isles. If nobody here is proposing to change those two basic facts, or indeed the basic purpose of navigation templates, then the piping is clearly not justified. No amount of tedious BI dispute rehashing here will change this. For navigation templates, using code to presenting a different world view to readers based simply on what article they happen to be reading at the time, is not how you adhere to the NPOV. Infact, it is manifestly a POV violation, as it is a form of bias through intentional internal inconsistency. It was not the community accepted solution for the high profile NPOV disputes like Gdansk or Derry, and it is not the solution here. If you don't believe me, then go and ask User:Jimbo and he will set you straight. Frankly, if you can't get Jimbo to back you up on a core interpretation of NPOV like this, well, you have no case at all as far as any right minded Wikipedian will be concerned. MickMacNee (talk) 15:37, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

I tend to agree with your view. It's called the British Isles, and pipelinking from other terms leading to "British Isles" may confuse (I'm less convinced about the argument of "surprised"). But - and here's something that editors may not have considered - local consensus on individual articles may result in the template being removed from articles (and I'm thinking Ireland-heavy articles here). I'm sure this will set off another round of debates i.e. "censorship" and NPOV, but you may all just be poking a hornets nest with a large honey-stick... --HighKing (talk) 10:24, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
Dammit, don't make me agree with both of you ;-) My view (above) is that "British Isles" should be used, but that the param can be used to provide additional terms. I can't see why that shouldn't keep "both sides" happy. TFOWR 10:32, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Hans' suggestions

I don't agree with MickMacNee, and I don't appreciate huge, bold hammers on my head, at least when they are broken.

I'm an idiot, so can someone explain how this exactly works? Does it mean that the title Great Britain, Ireland, and surrounding islands will be piped to British Isles, whereas the British Isles in the box will direct to the naming dispute? I'm not sure that makes sense to me, but I do like the idea in principle Chipmunkdavis (talk) 12:02, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

I think that's the proposal, but i cant support that. BritishWatcher (talk) 12:04, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure now exactly what's being proposed. One thing's for sure, this construction; British Isles is totally unacceptable. LevenBoy (talk) 12:11, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, I'm not thrilled by [[British Isles naming dispute|British Isles]]. I'd suggest piping it to "naming dispute" is far, far better (i.e. [[British Isles naming dispute|Naming dispute]]). "British Isles" is somewhat redundant in as much as we're talking about a naming dispute that affects the area covered by the template, so I can see why piping would be useful, but piping it to "British Isles" is... unclear at best. TFOWR 12:19, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
My suggestion above, with no link in the title just saying Great Britain, Ireland and related islands" would avoid any confusing or misleading pipelinks. Then we just need to say British Isles in the second row, and it will be clear the articles on terminology/naming dispute is related to the British Isles. At present that is not clear. Its a compromise that addresses some of the problems, unless the problem or intention is simply not wanting "British Isles" displayed anywhere in the template, which is presently the case on articles that pipelink with GB+I. BritishWatcher (talk) 12:24, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Sure, my thinking was that that is an article that discusses the term "British Isles" as a term (or comes close to it). I'm reverting since it is clear that this isn't going to fly.
Am I right in thinking that where we are now is simply at a stage where we want to brainstorm ideas about where we can fit the word "British Isles" into the template (if it doesn't appear in the title)? TBH my first thoughts about that is that it is wanton insertion of a term for no good reason except to simply have it in there; but before others talk about what it "intollerable" or "unacceptable", please consider that my suggestion above was in the spirit of trying to work out how that desire on the part of others can be realised. — RA (talk) 12:37, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
[after edit conflict] BW, when I revert my suggestion form this morning, I'll put in yours. — RA (talk) 12:37, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
I've done another edit along the lines of BW's suggestion. If the title is not set to something else then the template appears as normal. If the title is set to something else then the title of the template is not pipe linked and [[British Isles]] is added to the first row.
I've added the following in parenthesis after the terminology link: [[Britain (name)|Britain]] {{·}}[[Éire]] {{·}}[[Names of the Irish state|Ireland]]. I think they are the most frequent "difficult" terminology (although "England" could also be added). The link to the Names of the Irish state article should remain as it is a notable "weird" one (as we well know). --— RA (talk) 12:46, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
I think it works as they are in the terminology bracket. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 13:30, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
I disagree, i think that second line should be about the group of islands, not terminology in general about the name of Britain etc. British Isles, BI Naming dispute, BI terminology, and possible IONA if it is going to remain an article although id merge it into the BI terminology page or naming page. BritishWatcher (talk) 14:32, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

[British Isles naming dispute|Naming dispute], is acceptable as a pipe-link. GoodDay (talk) 14:49, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

28th September

The following comments were preceeded by this edit. --RA (talk) 00:03, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

"The following phrases were agreed for use as pipe-linked text in different circumstances: British-Irish Council area (political articles) Great Britain, Ireland, and related islands(geographic/general articles) British Isles—or Great Britain, Ireland, and related islands (terminology articles)"

I must of missed all of that! BritishWatcher (talk) 22:40, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

"BOLD suggestion" above. I assumed silence was consensus. Maybe I could have made it clearer in the summary that this concerned a very limited set of articles. --RA (talk) 22:53, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
But since that suggestion, wed also discussed the second line. As i said before i am prepared to support "Great Britain, Ireland and related islands" as the title of the infobox on certain articles (Ireland related). But it would need in the second line to include British Isles first in the second row, coming before naming dispute and terminology. BritishWatcher (talk) 00:08, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
That's what happens. If the template is pipe-linked in any way, [[British Isles]] appears in the second row before the other links. If the template is not pipe-linked [[British Isles|The British Isles]] appears as the heading (and there is no need for duplication on the second row). Compare Great Britain and Ireland for example uses. --RA (talk) 09:07, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
Ahhh, i am fine with that yes sorry, thats not how i read the consensus box lol. Thats all ok, provided the title is only changed on specific articles where there is an issue (Ireland specific articles). BritishWatcher (talk) 09:18, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
No bother :-) --RA (talk) 11:09, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
  • This 'solution' is a complete abortion, a totally incomprehensible mess. It is of no use to any ordinary reader, who is, thanks to the whole point behind the nav templates system, totaly familiar to the normal way that these things are presented ans d related across 99% of pages. And it is of no use to any normal non-Irish dispute interested editors either, who are understandably also similarly familiar with the nav-template norms and standards that are used on every single other page and topic on the pedia, but who are going to have no idea wtf has gone on here to achieve this 'solution', which is the flawed product of the same few faces and the same usual wrongheaded ideas about NPOV. This mess is not how you present the neutral point of view in any way, shape or form. But I see in my absence, nobody had the confidence of their own abilities to have their interpretation of the policy in this particular situation actualy checked by the one person who knows. It would have been better to delete the whole thing tbh. MickMacNee (talk) 23:34, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

I have just become aware of this discussion and I can't see any point in the existence of a template that contains Ireland, Guernsey, and Cornish. We don't have templates yoking Switzerland and Denmark together. It's bizarre. --O'Dea (talk) 20:02, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Yeah we do: Template:Countries of Europe --Joowwww (talk) 12:35, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Hibernia etc

I am sorry, it is really not clear where this section is going adding Etymologies for Albion, Hibernia etc. Are we going for a complete list of historical kingdoms, all and any previous names, myth and legend or what? Why not Mercia and Wessex or Pretannia, why exclude Wales and Cornwall etc. It could be one but it could become huge.

I intended just a simple list of the geographic terms relating to the disputes. As a compromise for the meanwhile, I just removed it. --LevenBoy (talk) 15:13, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

The section is on terminology of the region. Why remove articles on etymologies of major terms used (Britain, Ireland, etc.)? Your original edit included some of these. They had also been on the template before then. I added three more: (a) two classical terms for the major islands: Albion, Hibernia and (b) Scotland. --RA (talk) 19:33, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
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