Talk:The 4-Hour Workweek/Archives/2012

This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

The current rev as of 2/19/2008 12:38 AM EST says "While attending Princeton University, Ferriss' entrepreneurial side became apparent when he began offering accelerated learning classes for profit. Upon graduating from Princeton (and after a number of unfulfilling jobs) Ferriss became a founder of BrainQUICKEN[2], a company that sells sports nutrition products."

Somethings needs verification other than Ferris's website there is no verification of Ferris's claim that Ferris is a princeton graduat. Whats on record is that he an Entrepreneurship class there. This needs verification.

Also heres a video of Ferris on TV where he represented himself as a health expert http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVyhILwQxg0

That's his youtube channel, eg masterlock77. If anyone is interested picking his brain, setup a google alert for masterlock77, and you'll see his accounts/posts on kendoworld, digg, viddler, stumbleupon, etc... interesting stuff. Family Guy Guy (talk) 17:42, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Ferris Claims MBA's in india cost $4-5 an hour and claims thats also the case in canada http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k24zlb2KR9I MBAs in india are paid $20000 year. that makes it around $10/ hr for full time employees contractors charge more as they have to make arrangements for their own offices.... The number in canada is well way off. The intuition i have is that he is a conman some one promoting a get rich quick dream. More research needs to be done there....

I did not edit the main page yet but will soon or maybe some one else should do it  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.174.89.104 (talk) 05:58, 19 February 2008 (UTC) 

Which parts are deemed COI? Is it too supportive and promotional of Ferriss' work? All the information in the article are backed up with proper references, and the information recorded is in the best interest of the readers/information that readers are looking for on Ferriss -- Cmoti 04:39, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Cmoti, this is a biography of a living person. Ferris is a 30-year-old man, not a 1-year-old book. The information about Ferriss himself in the section Entrepreneurship is not sourced for verification. The section 4-Hour Workweek is also unreferenced. The section Book Reviews, Hoax Email Poem & Claims is highly critical of his single published work, and it is externally linked through inline references that are not listed in the reference section. The WP:COI tag on this article is to indicate that a single editor is not abiding by a neutral point of view in developing this Wikipedia article. Timothy Ferriss is a human being, and as long as there's an article in Wikipedia about him, this article should fairly and accurately reflect the public record of his activities and achievements. This article is not a good biography at the moment -- it's mainly a critique of Ferriss's single book. I'll do some basic cleanup on this Wikipedia article for you, but if you cannot source the biographical information and eliminate the emphasis on book criticism, this article might be deleted. I haven't proposed the article for deletion because you're actively working on it. But the COI tag will stay in place until this article is a balanced and well-referenced biography. If you can source and balance the article, I'll take the tag off. It's up to you. I'll help if I can. --Busy Stubber 01:52, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi BusyStubber, Thanks for explaining and for your help, am new to this. Should I create an article on Ferriss' book instead, and not place this info in his biographical article? Also, when you say biographical information, does that mean biographical info from Ferriss' book and blog, or from third party sources? I'm not able to find any third party biographical info on Ferriss. That's why I link to as many references as possible on the Internet, because it turns out that many of Ferriss' claims in his blog and book are being criticized for not being properly substantiated. Cmoti 05:06, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Cmoti, I'm glad to help :) It sounds like we shouldn't be trying to create a Ferriss biography here -- there's not enough independent verifiable information on him. I'm moving this bio article to a Wikipedia book article. There's still the problem of neutral coverage on this book, and I'm not sure the book article will pass Wikipedia's notability criteria for books. For that you'll need to cite reliable independent book reviews and ratings. Most blogs are not considered reliable sources of information by Wikipedia, so be careful about using blogs as a major source of information for the article. I'll check back and help if I can. --Busy Stubber 13:31, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Article moved to new title. --Busy Stubber 14:14, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

cmoti - this article is looking good. Its good you got an admin to steer you in the right direction. --82.28.227.238 22:26, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

This article about a book did not actually say much about the book. The section "Origins" should be expanded to a biography of the author. I question having the author's name redirect to this page. I would like to see the biography section be at least a couple of paragraphs long, on its own page, and have that page contain a link to this book (but not an automatic redirect). I see no evidence that the author of the previous article has actually read the book, or even skimmed the table of contents which is available for free on the Ferriss's website. Therefore, having read the book, I added a summary. The first item of criticism says that the author was confused about the correct attribution of a poem, and upon being informed of the correct attribution, the author corrected the next printing of the book and published a retraction. While this might indicate a lapse of proofreading or fact-checking in the original book, doesn't the correction indicate good character? VisitorTalk 21:18, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Feel free to expand the article to include more information on the book! See Wikipedia:WikiProject Books/Non-fiction article to see the general structure and content for non-fiction book articles. --Busy Stubber 17:27, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Note: This is in response to the note at the top of the talk page Note: This article was originally created in Wikipedia as a biography of the author, Timothy Ferriss. --Busy Stubber 14:14, 5 July 2007 (UTC) --

Thanks for the clarification, Busy. Do you have an objection to splitting the biographical material onto a biography page, and leaving information about the book on this page? My intention is that both pages would then be expanded into articles with tone and sourcing appropriate for an encyclopedia. For an example of what I have in mind, look at my rewrite of the Roy Masters (commentator) article. VisitorTalk 21:22, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Upon creation of a biographical page for the author, I will move all criticism of the author (as opposed to the book) to the author page. Within a few days, I will remove all criticism that is not properly supported. Note that as I understand it, Wikipedia policy does not consider comments to blog postings to be authoritative citations for criticism of a living person. Unless you have something better from a legitimate review source, the comparison with Frey would need to be removed. The criticisms, by the way, should be organized into three sections: 1. Claims that Ferriss misrepresents his own life in order to promote unrealistic ideas. 2. Claims that Ferriss's life changes could not be replicated by others; in other words, thought it worked for him, it would not work for others. 3. Claims that even if the changes Ferriss advocates could really happen, implementing his changes would be selfishly amoral. Ferriss openly discusses and refutes each of these types of charges on his blog and in interviews. VisitorTalk 21:38, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

You might want to review Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. If you have enough published, independent sources on Ferriss to build a neutral article about him, it could make a good addition to Wikipedia. Maybe you could provide the citations for your text in Roy Masters (commentator) before working on a Ferriss biography. Also, that article is tagged for lacking WP:NPOV, so you might want to spend some time looking at Wikipedia's policies and guidelines to help you write better articles. Hope this is helpful! --Busy Stubber 17:27, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I found out about this inadequate Wikipedia article from a mention on Ferriss's blog. It would be nice for that blog to be updated with a comment indicating that there is a Wikipedia revision in progress. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by VisitorTalk (talk • contribs) 22:55, August 20, 2007 (UTC).

Feel free to update the blog! But this talk page is for discussion about this Wikipedia article, so it's best not to ask editors here to contribute to blogs. Thanks! --Busy Stubber 17:27, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

User:38.99.21.130 put the speedy-delete tag on this article and also was quite rude to Cmoti at the same time. The article is definitely highly critical, and noboby has taken the time yet to balance it out. I don't know Cmoti's motivation for creating the article, so I can't speak to the attack bias. --Busy Stubber 03:33, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I created this article expecting more people to come forward and improve it with correct facts about Ferriss. My motivation is to have the true facts about Ferriss posted here. While searching the web for biographical info on Ferriss, I mostly came across a lot of criticism about Ferriss, especially about Ferriss' failure to show proof of his claims. But until now, unfortunately, the real facts about Ferriss and his claims still remains fuzzy. I would strongly encourage Ferriss and his publisher to properly clarify the list of claims highlighted in this article.

Rude people like User:38.99.21.130 don't bother me, if anything it just makes me more determined to ensure the truth is represented in this article. It's really suspicious when nameless hacks start deleting info and insulting editors, instead of trying to shed light on the subject matter. If you look up the IP of User:38.99.21.130, you can trace it to San Francisco, California. I have the ISP details and will request action to be taken against User:38.99.21.130 if needed.

For the record, in the past three days there have been several attempts by nameless hacks like User:38.99.21.130 to delete info from this article, if not the article itself, without stating their reasons for doing so.

Cmoti 11:37, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

There's a useful outline for articles about non-fiction books that might help here. This article doesn't have a synopsis of the book. Can you add this? --Busy Stubber 15:36, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi BusyStubber, I will go through these guidelines and do a full update once Ferriss and his publisher clarify the claims mentioned. Cmoti 01:17, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Cmoti, the book is in print, and this article is about the book. The article needs a synopsis of the book, whether Farris and his publisher respond to critisism or not. Can you add this? If you can't add this, then the article is basically a list of criticisms about a book that isn't even summarized here. Please add a synopsis. --Busy Stubber 03:00, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

• 125.22.248.167 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) Has vandalized the article and deleted key information from this article without properly citing references. -- Cmoti 11:27, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I've tracked down the IP address of *125.22.248.167 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) to Chennai, India. I have the ISP details and will request action to be taken if needed. Cmoti 05:19, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

"If you're ready to read some great character assassination, read on. This entry was solely created to discredit the author with misinformation. Read the entry and judge for yourself: how much of this is about the book?"

Frankly, the vandal has a good point, Cmoti. You know this article needs a summary of the book, and it doesn't have one. It began as a list of criticism, and you haven't improved it. I'm putting a NPOV tag on it. --Busy Stubber 23:57, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

BusyStubber, why are you supporting vandals! It's so ridiculous I just have to laugh, first time I've seen an editor actually praise a vandal for deleting and misconstruing article information! Can't you see this is exactly what the vandal wants? This article is for people to add in the true facts about Ferriss but so far no one has been able to - how does that amount to a character assassination? And since when have I become solely responsible for improving this article? Why don't you and other editors improve on it instead of simply sticking NPOV tags on perfectly good articles? Why is it deemed NPOV now when the article was fine for months until the vandal showed up? I'd like a good explanation why you are supporting the work of vandals. Cmoti 05:59, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

It's been NPOV for months. Now it has a tag that says so. Neither you nor anyone else seems to want to clean it up. You've had time. They've had time. Editors don't generally put NPOV tags on new articles that're being actively worked on -- many articles are temporarily out of balance while they're being developed.

The tag might attract editors who want to make this a good article. If not, at least the readers get a clear warning now. --Busy Stubber 23:25, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

BusyStubber, I'm sorry to say this but you've lost all credibility in my eyes. An editor who supports vandals is also a vandal. Cmoti 08:13, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, that's just laughable. BusyStubber vandalized what, now? Nothing? Oh, I see, then. Listen, talking about what the vandal said is totally different from vandalizing, supporting vandalism, supporting a particular vandal's actions, or for that matter from namecalling. That's right, I said it. Namecalling. 76.200.144.234 03:48, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Cmoti, back in July, you were thanking BusyStubber for helping and providing experienced guidance. Now look at ya'. Looks like you're still new at this. 76.200.144.234 03:55, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Seems like a lot of strange reversions and vandalism on this article over the last few weeks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mukhatir (talk • contribs) 01:30, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I give up on this article. The decision was to keep it, and I respect that decision. But this is a waste of time for me -- in my opinion -- so I'm not going to keep reverting here. Addhoc, good luck and God bless you! --Busy Stubber (talk) 03:41, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

The sources cited for Ferriss' claimed martial arts accomplishments are highly faux pas--one being a forum and the other "NowNow", a Q&A website hosted by Amazon. To say that these claims have been substantiatet is not possibly supported by such dubious sources. Moreover, a quick glance through the NowNow page suggests exactly the contrary.

I am deleting these sources, as well as the claim that it has been substantiated, until someone can come up with some better research.

Here are the websites if anyone wants to look through them:

• [1]
• [2]

Reaper Man (talk) 07:14, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

You're right. The second source is actually a reprint of an earlier Wikipedia article. Agreed. TheRegicider (talk) 16:17, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually the whole dewhydration/rehydration story is totally false. First of all basically everybody does this (at least the ones who have to loose weight before a contest to fit into their category). Second you of course cannot suddenly drink as much as to get back to categories of weight (actually you cannot loose that much either). A category should be 5 or maybe 10 kg wide and if its narrower (like 2-2.5) then coming from two categories above does not make you a 'sumo'. But anyway, you cannot suddenly rehidrate with more than 2 liters, so it's totally false. Then if you're totally untrained or just not top notch then you will be beaten to death by the best of the lower category even if he weights 10 kg less than you. Not to mention that 'Chineese Kickbox' sounds a bit strange as most of the chineese compete in [Sanda]. All-in-all this part is (also) a very-very weak lie. Atleta.hu (talk) 01:53, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm just curious why there is a link to Robert Scoble's article on this page. I'm not saying there's not a connection, but I am unaware of one that is significant enough to warrant mention of Scoble in Ferriss' article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.72.181.50 (talk) 18:39, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

The comment below was left on my talk page regarding this article. I have moved it here as I think it's properly part of this discussion. Shorn again (talk) 17:03, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Ferriss makes several unsubstantiated^{[citation needed]} claims in his book:

• That he is a National Chinese Kickboxing champion.^{[1][failed verification]}
• That he has been a "Cage fighter in Japan, vanquisher of four world champions (MMA)"^{[2][better source needed]} These fights are not sufficiently substantiated by Ferriss [3]^{[unreliable source?]} and appear in no MMA databases^{[citation needed]}.

John Mahaney, Executive Editor, Crown Business jmahaney.(at).randomhouse.com should issue a full refund on all books purchased, and he should resign. It is time for John Mahaney to stop profiting from fraud and lies perpetuated on the people. ^[3], ^[4]

“Ferriss’ book was released to the public on April 24, 2007. On the very same day, Ferriss’ book received 17 five-star reviews on amazon.com written by first-time amazon.com reviewers.” Clear, undeniable fraud. This simply does not happen. Ferriss likely had nothing to do with it (lol). “Outsource everything” is a great get-out-of-jail free card. It’s just obvious he’s too busy cage-fighting to select an honest publisher or handlers to outsource his life to. ^[5]

If John Mahaney, Executive Editor, Crown Business does not resign, we will call upon the editor in chief of Random House to resign. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.0.157.163 (talk) 17:45, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Does this have any bearing on the book itself or the article? Clearly, the poster of this request for the editor's head is upset, but this is an encyclopedia, not a blog. The article needs more facts, not more opinions. Jjoganic (talk) 19:20, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Why the ad hominem attack? Is the love of truth now tantamount to being "upset?" Thatn indeed Tim Ferriss and his editor John Mahaney are very happy men!

Why not let the truth stand? Again, why is John Mahaney working with unsubstantiated hype? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.0.157.163 (talk) 19:34, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

According to TED.com, Tim is a f r a u d who has lied about his swimming ability. ^[6] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.0.157.163 (talk) 19:49, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

The entire history of book publishing is rife with books of dubious claims. That's what the "Criticism" section is for. If you have an issue with the book publisher, use your blog. I removed your personal plea, but I retained the factual content of your post. What more can you ask for? The "criticism" section is open for your input. Use it. But be factual, so that people can make an informed decision. Your plea is not persuasive, because people who are arriving at the page do not understand your concerns. Elaborate. Why are you upset? What fraud has been committed? Cite your sources. Make an argument. Otherwise, no one will listen, and eventually, your commits will be reverted, and your IP banned until next time. Be bold. Make a permanent mark on the page that no reasonable person could, in good conscience, revert. Otherwise, it's just vandalism. Jjoganic (talk) 19:53, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Why are you so filled with hate for facts and truth? Why did you delete this: According to TED.com, Tim is a f r a u d who has lied about his swimming ability. ^[7]

Why are you spending Easter Saturday defending the fact that Tim Ferris makes unsubstantiated claims without ever providing real names of the fighters he supposedly vanquished? How much is Random House paying you?

I will be sending a letter to the CEO with your name (so that he can give you a raise), so please do share your real name. Please stop masking your hate for truth and beauty behind an anonymous mask. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.0.157.163 (talk) 20:41, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Hello my friend Jjoganic (Tim Ferriss). Please add the following to the page as you are a lover of truth and bauty and spend your Eatser Weekends working 4 Crown:

Ferriss's Hype & Unsubstantiated BS 3. That he is "Advisor to more than 30 world record holders in professional and Olympic sports" (not substantiated). 4. That he has been a "Cage fighter in Japan, vanquisher of four world champions (MMA)" and a "National Chinese kickboxing champion" (not substantiated). 5. That he created a chain of gyms in China before being forced to close them down by local gangsters (not substantiated). 6. That he was an actor on a hit TV series in mainland China and Hong Kong (not substantiated). In an article on his blog, Ferriss claims to have gained 34lbs of muscle in 4 weeks, with a total gym time of just 4 hours (not substantiated). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.0.157.163 (talk) 20:47, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Happy Easter my good friendJjoganic (Tim Ferriss). Might the following edit/format meet with your tatstes and definitions of noble sublimity? Please do inform us! Thanks in advance.

Ferriss makes several unsubstantiated claims in his book:

• That he is a National Chinese Kickboxing champion.^{[8][failed verification]}
• That he has been a "Cage fighter in Japan, vanquisher of four world champions (MMA These fights are not sufficiently substantiated by Ferriss [4] and appear in no MMA databases.
• That he is "Advisor to more than 30 world record holders in professional and Olympic sports" (not substantiated).
• That he has been a "Cage fighter in Japan, vanquisher of four world champions (MMA)" and a "National Chinese kickboxing champion" (not substantiated).
• That he created a chain of gyms in China before being forced to close them down by local gangsters (not substantiated--Ferriss refuses to name the gym or its location).
• That he was an actor on a hit TV series in mainland China and Hong Kong (not substantiated--no trace of video nor listings and Ferriss will not name the show).
• In an article on his blog, Ferriss claims to have gained 34lbs of muscle in 4 weeks, with a total gym time of just 4 hours (not substantiated)

Ferriss' book received numerous five star reviews on the day of its release, prompting the blog author to suspect inappropriate gaming of Amazon.com's rating system. The blog author further speculates that Ferriss has perpetuated a Confidence trick in the mode of Aleksey Vayner.

Respected TED member Max Hodges noted that Tim Ferriss's claims regarding his swimming ability are completely fraudulent. TED Members thanked Max for pointing out Tim's fraud "Ah...you're a genius. Now I feel disillusioned. Thanks Max." and many lamented that TED is ruining its credibility. ^[9]

Without reliable, verifiable sources (see WP:V and WP:SOURCES for more information), this material is dubious at best, and clearly violates WP:NPOV. There appear to also be WP:BLP and WP:COI issues. --Alan (talk) 17:25, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Alan, you are right. "Without reliable, verifiable sources (see WP:V and WP:SOURCES for more information), this material is dubious at best, and clearly violates WP:NPOV." Tim's claims lack reliable, verifiable sources, and thus his book ought be removed from wikipedia.

Alan--do you need page the specific page numbers that he makes the claim? I will gladly add that. Will that satiate you?

Just out of curiosity, why are you persecuting me? I can provide the page numbers if that is what you wish, but instead of persecuting me and trying to get be banned from wikipedia, why not just ask for the page numbers?

What is your emotional/financial attachment to all this? Why the violent reactions, the ad hominem attacks, and threats?

Thanks Alan. Let us work together in providing the proper page numbers. Do you have a copy of the book on hand?

Thanks Alan. :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.0.157.163 (talk) 17:41, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

I am, at least, temporarily withdrawing from discussion regarding this article, as any further edits I produce will violate WP:3RR. Please note that I have requested commentary on this matter from other editors. Until consensus can be reached, I must ask you to also refrain from further editing of the page. --Alan (talk) 17:48, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

I'll take over for you Alan. Per WP:BLP, any criticism must be sourced to reliable third-party sources which may not be self-published. You can't simply baldly that claims can't be substantiated. You must provide reliably sourced statements from third-parties that such-and-such statement is false. Yworo (talk) 17:53, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

There seems to be a question as to whether Mr. Ferriss' book, The 4-Hour Workweek, is completely factual and honest in its portrayal of Ferriss' personal activities and achievements. I invite editors to review the edit histories and Discussion pages for both Timothy Ferriss and The 4-Hour Workweek and comment on the applicability of the proposed edits, as well as whether such edits meet the criteria for inclusion under WP:V, WP:NPOV, WP:SOURCES and/or WP:BLP. --Alan (talk) 14:37, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

For a bestselling nonfiction book making bold claims, surprisingly no criticism has found it's place in the article. A brief review of the activities of the editors suggests that this article is professionally managed with the express goal of removal of factual information that may be viewed as negative. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.53.210.146 (talk) 20:05, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually, our express policy to prevent Wikipedia from being sued is that all negative information must be sourced. All unsourced negative information is required to be removed by Wikipedia policy. No properly sourced criticism has ever been added. Yworo (talk) 20:48, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Yworo when you use the word "our" it suggests you have been have been expressly charged with a policing role by wikipedian management above and beyond being a normal user contribution, is this the case ?. Would you not say that a reasonable review of the editing and removal of all even midly negativing comments, leaving a POV totally inline with the publishers and authors viewpoint suggest the work of professionals or compensated ( monetary or otherwise) article managers? My view is that all editors of the article must devulge if they are being directly or indirectly compensated for their activities; in particular the author, the publisher or consultants and 3rd parties acting on their instructions 67.53.210.146 (talk) 05:39, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Nope, I use "our" referring to "us Wikipedians" only. I don't work for anybody. And accusing others of doing so is against our policies. See our rules for assuming good faith and against personal attacks. We do have a rule against conflict of interest, but nothing has been removed from this article except because it wasn't properly sourced using reliable sources as required by our biography of living persons policy. In other words, your accusations appear bizarre and unfounded. Yworo (talk) 05:48, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

I would contend this is not a biography of a living person, but a book proporting a step by step guide to getting rich (joining the new rich) whilst working 4 hours a week. As such the biography of living persons policy is not aplicable for disputed factual information contained in the book. Only those comments in reference to author Tim Ferriss are covered by BLP policy. 67.53.210.146 (talk) 08:59, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

True, this is not the actual bio article about the author, but we still must cite a reliable source for all data, especially information about living people. I have just edited the section of responses by critics, including both favorable and unfavorable mentions without giving undue weight to either. I hope no editor will remove any properly cited content without first reaching consensus here on the talk page. (Heroeswithmetaphors) talk 07:20, 14 December 2012 (UTC)