Talk:Somali people/Archive 7
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Sultan
Blocked sock Doug Weller talk 15:18, 20 October 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
The article should cover Somalis across the board. I don't even know why this is up for debate. Sultan Abduelahi's international representation is well sourced. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SandMan25 (talk • contribs) 20:18, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
References |
Sources
i meant to post this earlier. If you think yfull and Fonda meet our criteria you need to get agreement at WP:RSN? Doug Weller talk 19:12, 20 October 2018 (UTC) The data is completely legitimate and yfull has the most sophisticated and advanced y-chromosome tree anywhere available.Wadaad (talk) 20:30, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
Population figures
The number of Somalis in Kenya keeps being changed to 3 million, but the figure per the cited source, which is the 2009 census, is 2,385,572. Please do not change this figure without supplying an alternative source (and in fact, it would be best to discuss the matter here first). I also think that the overall population figure needs a source, because just adding up several different countries' figures is original research. Cordless Larry (talk) 14:19, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
- We are in 2018. Nearly a decade has passed since that census. Kenya's fertility rate is over 4 per woman and higher in rural areas where Somalis live. If you haven't noticed, I used the same method to come to the 6.7 million figure for Ethiopia (6.2% of present population of about 107 million Ethiopia's population). Kenya's population is estimated to be 51 million.[1][2] 6.2% of that is over 3 million. Wadaad (talk) 15:49, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
- The problem is "using a method" - that's original research. There is nothing to say that the population of Somalis has grown at exactly the same rate as the population as a whole. You'll need a source for the 3 million figure if you want to use it. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:01, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
- Clarified with a note. This should be sufficient. Somalis are Muslim and Muslims tend to have even higher fertility rates than Christians.. So if anything this will underestimate Wadaad (talk) 16:11, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, exactly, so not only are you additions original research, they are likely to be wrong. Please do not add them again without a source. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:14, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
- Seek consensus and stop your disruptive edits. You are not even Somali and it seems like you have an agenda here. Wadaad (talk) 16:16, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
- Wadaad, please refrain from personal attacks per WP:CIVIL, Wikipedia articles can be edited by everyone. As far as I can see, no reputable source cites the 3 million figure explicitly, this is why the figure was removed. Somali statistics generally are lacking and this is but one example, so unless we have new figures backed by reputable sources, we are stuck with older figures. Regards --Kzl55 (talk) 16:28, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
- Seek consensus and stop your disruptive edits. You are not even Somali and it seems like you have an agenda here. Wadaad (talk) 16:16, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, exactly, so not only are you additions original research, they are likely to be wrong. Please do not add them again without a source. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:14, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
- Clarified with a note. This should be sufficient. Somalis are Muslim and Muslims tend to have even higher fertility rates than Christians.. So if anything this will underestimate Wadaad (talk) 16:11, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
- The problem is "using a method" - that's original research. There is nothing to say that the population of Somalis has grown at exactly the same rate as the population as a whole. You'll need a source for the 3 million figure if you want to use it. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:01, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
Somalis in Kenya have bigger families than other Kenyans. See https://www.kenya-today.com/politics/somalis-join-the-big-four-tribes-in-kenya-muslims-to-produce-a-president-soon The estimate with a note is reasonable and therefore should be there. Wadaad (talk) 16:37, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
- Wadaad, you have been here long enough to know that we do not include our own population estimates in articles. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:23, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
- Doug Weller, as someone who takes an interest in this topic, would you be able to comment? Cordless Larry (talk) 21:43, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
- Cordless LarryThe topic that interests me is sources and original research. @Wadaad:, WP:VERIFY is core policy. If you can't follow it and insist also on ignoring our policy on no original research, you shouldn't be editing and you are virtually inviting a block.Doug Weller talk 08:05, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks, Doug Weller - that was my take too, and I was on the verge of taking Wadaad to AN/I yesterday about the "You are not even Somali" comments. Those aside, it seems that there is no consensus for Wadaad's changes, and I therefore propose that we revert this edit, which adds the unverified population estimates. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:06, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
- Cordless LarryThe topic that interests me is sources and original research. @Wadaad:, WP:VERIFY is core policy. If you can't follow it and insist also on ignoring our policy on no original research, you shouldn't be editing and you are virtually inviting a block.Doug Weller talk 08:05, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
This is ridiculous. Wadaad (talk) 09:57, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
- In what way is it ridiculous? Wikipedia policy has never allowed for editors to concoct their own population estimates. Cordless Larry (talk) 10:02, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
- And Kenya-today is not a source to be used for an encyclopaedia anyway, it's just a blog site where people post opinions and the like. 131.203.122.225 (talk) 23:35, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
References
Lead expansion
It needs to be expanded.. It's a bit too short. For more info see Manual of Style/Lead section Wadaad (talk) 23:15, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
Regarding "Hamitic"
There is several mentions of the outdated and frankly incorrect and pseudohistorical term "Hamitic" as an ethnolinguistic descriptor. I will assume, in good faith, that this is not an attempt at historical revisionism and promoting debunked theories but perhaps someone very old edtiting born in the middle of the 1800s.
I will now add instead redirects to the actual group of people this is most likely referencing Cushitic peoples 92.32.147.76 (talk) 19:27, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
Europe figure
@Cordless Larry: you claim that I am violating WP:SYNTH, however, on the same page at WP:CALC it is permissible to perform routine calculations from sources and it does not constitute original research. On your other point that it does not reflect all of Europe: I have gone over the numbers and the countries left out have Somali/Somalia populations of under a thousand (think of places like Luxembourg, Portugal, Estonia etc) even without data on them the figure will not change by any meaningful number and the circa in front of it provides sufficient information to readers that it is a close approximation. Wadaad (talk) 20:44, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
- WP:CALC would only apply if we knew the Somali populations of all countries in Europe and were therefore able to calculate a total. There is also the issue that the figures for each country are arrived at through different measures (some represent the number of people of Somali ethnicity, others the number of people born in Somalia), so you are trying to add together figures that aren't comparable. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:54, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
- WP:CALC does apply in my opinion because I have clearly explained the final figure using a tag, it is easily verifiable. As for not including all of Europe: again the countries not included on this page and the calculation do not have any meaningful Somali diasporas (sub-1000 people). All the major Somali diasporas are included. Their lack of inclusion will not change the figure by much. Somalis in Europe primarily live in West-Central Europe, Italy, and Nordic Europe (all included). Wadaad (talk) 21:05, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
- "Meaningful" and "by much" are subjective. This is original research. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:49, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
- You are being needlessly overly scrutinous to the point of hampering information flow. No major Somali diasporas exist in Eastern Europe or Iberia. Their national statistics bureaus state it. This is not only common knowledge but verifiable.[1][2][3][4] etc. Figures for countries with more than 1,000 Somalis have all been included on this page. Wadaad (talk) 22:18, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
- I can only refer you to WP:VERIFY. The figures you're adding up don't even refer to the same year. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:42, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
- You are being needlessly overly scrutinous to the point of hampering information flow. No major Somali diasporas exist in Eastern Europe or Iberia. Their national statistics bureaus state it. This is not only common knowledge but verifiable.[1][2][3][4] etc. Figures for countries with more than 1,000 Somalis have all been included on this page. Wadaad (talk) 22:18, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
- "Meaningful" and "by much" are subjective. This is original research. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:49, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
- WP:CALC does apply in my opinion because I have clearly explained the final figure using a tag, it is easily verifiable. As for not including all of Europe: again the countries not included on this page and the calculation do not have any meaningful Somali diasporas (sub-1000 people). All the major Somali diasporas are included. Their lack of inclusion will not change the figure by much. Somalis in Europe primarily live in West-Central Europe, Italy, and Nordic Europe (all included). Wadaad (talk) 21:05, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
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Re my new addition to "Autosomal genetics" section
Recently, I added a sentence whose purpose is to concisely summarize the findings of the Hodgson et al. dna study, which is discussed and quoted in more detail further down in the section (and also illustrated in the map images from Hodgson in the section). My addition states that Somalis (and other Horn Africans) have a mixture of African ancestry of a type autothonous/indigenous to the Horn of Africa/"HOA" (which Hodgson terms the "Ethiopic" component) and ancestry derived from back-migrating non-Africans (which Hodgson terms the "Ethio-Somali" component). More precisely, my addition reads: "Research on autosomal DNA also shows that Somalis have a mixture of a type of African ancestry unique and autochthonous to the Horn of Africa as well as ancestry originating from a non-African back-migration."
After thus follows a somewhat detailed description of Hodgson's findings (including regarding the affinities of the non-African component, its divergence from other groups, its ubiquity in certain parts of the Horn of Africa, and other details), Hodgson et al. is quoted as follows regarding both components: "The African Ethiopic ancestry is tightly restricted to HOA populations and likely represents an autochthonous HOA population. The non-African ancestry in the HOA, which is primarily attributed to a novel Ethio-Somali inferred ancestry component, is significantly differentiated from all neighboring non-African ancestries in North Africa, the Levant, and Arabia." It seems to me that the new sentence effectively and concisely summarizes some of the study's key fingings regarding the ancestral makeup of Horn Africans, especially regarding their autocthonous African component, whose presence otherwise/previously was little noted and but briefly introduced in the Hodgson quote at the end. Skllagyook (talk) 23:41, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
Ugas Nur
His poems are rememberd throughout the Somali regions. It's even used and was used in school texts book during Suugaan classes, (Poetry classes) and mentioned in numerious works by I.M Lewis or Andrzejewski. Ugas Nur is always featured in numerous works on Somali poetry, named among the famous names of Eilmi Boodhari and Ali Bu'ul. Page 65 [136]. This is in line with WP:Mainstream and WP:Notability. There are many sources [137],[138].
- When you say "his poems re remembered throughout the Somali regions", you need to provide reliable sources that state as much, do you have any? Getting featured as one of many poets in an anthology is not evidence of being exceptional. Very few sources reference him on Google Books [139]. --Kzl55 (talk) 21:40, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
- The same link you use mentions his poetry lol and I quote: I am taken back to the magnificent oral poetry (witness Ugaas Nuur's lines), to the idyllic sweetness of the pastoral world in which I was born and spent my adolescent ::years, and to which I yearn to return [140]. Also he is mentioned in the Historical Dictionary of Somalia by Mukhar and I quote: . In his youth, he loved riding, hunting, and the traditional arts and memorized a great number of proverbs, stories, and poems. Eventually, he created his own store of sayings, poems, and stories that are quoted to this day. [141].
- Also the link you used mentions him in numerous works on Somali poems and poetry. --AlaskaLava (talk) 21:44, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
- The issue of contention here is not whether he was a poet, its whether he was seen in reliable sources as a significant figure in Somali poetry. Do you have reliable sources stating that he was a significant figure in Somali poetry? --Kzl55 (talk) 21:51, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
- Those were all reliable sources. If he was not a significant figure, only a few works would've mention him, but that's not the case, even the most renown Somali anthropologists acknowledge him for his poetry and feature him in one of their finest works along the names of Elmi Bodhari, Ali Bu'ul, Mahamed Abdulle Hussein etc. In
- 1. Culture and Customs of Somalia [142],
- 2. An Anthology of Somali Poetry [143], again featured among names like Ali Bu'ul and Elmi Boodhari which are featured on the Somali poet list, re-affirming Ugaas Nuur being a significant figure in Somali poetry.
- 3. The same references are used on Elmi Boodhari's page. Even a blog is quoted. According to you, those sources are not reliable?
- 4. Apart from I.M Lewis, Andrzejewski, Abdullahi Mohamed Diriye he is also acknowledged by Mohamed Haji Mukhtar in his Historical Dictionary of Somalia. Eventually, he created his own store of sayings, poems, and stories that are quoted to this day. [144]
- 5. His work was and is still taught in Somali Poetry classes among other Somali poets. [145] PDF[146]
- 6. Apart from the book, he also mentioned in numerous journals for his poetry.
- Bildhaan: An International Journal of Somali Studies [147]
- Horn of Africa - Volumes 19-20 [148]
- Collection of Somali poems [149]
- War and peace: an anthology of Somali literature [150]
- Journal of Somali Literature and Culture [151]
- Aspects of artistic expression in Somalia [152]
- So according to WP:Mainstream or WP:N he meets all values to be included in the list. Those sources are also reliable and not few as you put it in the beginning, but many. Also there are many more less notable individuals on the Authors and Poet list you consider reliable. So would you be so kind to restore it? Cheers. --AlaskaLava (talk) 22:47, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
- There is no need to bombard the discussion with citations that do not answer the question. Being mentioned in a handful of sources indicates that he was a poet, to discuss him being a signifiant figure in Somali poetry you need reliable citations supporting such description. For instance, Hadrawi is "considered by many to be the greatest living Somali poet", this is the opinion of Daniel_Weissbort in [153]. Raage Ugaas is described as being "regarded as one of the greatest Somali poets" by Roland Greene in [154]. Academic authorities of the field describe these individuals as significant in Somali poetry. Do you have reliable sources stating that this individual was a significant figure in Somali poetry? --Kzl55 (talk) 23:21, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
- I already answered your question on his nobility or being a significant poet. Whether he was the greatest or considered one of the greatest which I also never claimed is trivial to the matter. He was considered a great poet by many. Obviously, there are many great Somali poets; therefore, only a few will be mentioned here. [155].
- And you're first issue was him not being mentioned in Google books or his poems being quoted to this day, which I disproved. Then you went on to say the sources are not reliable, which they obviously were or his nobility per WP:N. Which he all qualifies for. He was considered a great poet mentioned among notable poets as Raage Ugaas , Elmi Boodhari or Ali Bu'ul. Wether he was one the greatest or not to some is trivial to the matter. And he is mentioned among the greatest. --AlaskaLava (talk) 00:07, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
- 1)Per WP:BRD "If your edit gets reverted, do not revert again. Instead, begin a discussion with the person who reverted your change to establish consensus", Wikipedia guidelines are very clear that you should not restore content before consensus is reached. Please perform a self-revert and remove contentious addition until talk page discussion is over. Attempting to bulldoze contentious content prior to consensus being reached is disruptive.
- 2) You have listed sources that mention the individual being a poet, this has nothing to do with being a significant figure in Somali poetry. I have asked you to cite reliable sources stating that the individual is a significant figure in Somali poetry 4 times so far, and you've not produced a single citation other than references to him being a poet, which is not the issue being discussed. I have included examples above of individuals who are regarded by experts as significant in Somali poetry and have provided sources stating as much. For the 5th time, do you have any similar sources? If not the individual should not be included.--Kzl55 (talk) 00:33, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
- You refuse to acknowledge that the individual is notable out of subjective reasons. There are even more worrisome individuals mentioned on the list you do not apply the same rule for.
- I already answered everything that was needed to prove his nobility and he qualifies per Wikipedia Guidelines, WP:Mainstream and WP:N as a notable individual and poet. If you want we can request a third opinion or we can get the dispute resolution board involved. --AlaskaLava (talk) 00:46, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
- WP:BRD is very clear, "If your edit gets reverted, do not revert again", it is not up to you to decide when the discussion is over, this is a matter of consensus. If you would like to request a 3rd opinion you are free to do so. The sources you provided indicate that he was a Somali poet, but not a single source indicates that he was a significant figure in Somali poetry, this is the issue being discussed. --Kzl55 (talk) 00:59, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
- He was very significant as I've already illustrated above. That's not for you to decide. Leave that to the anthropologists who have included his poems in their finest work, from among all the poets and poems they could have chosen, they chose his and put him among other significant poets. Cheers --AlaskaLava (talk) 01:24, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
- Having his poetry published does not equate to being seen in reliable sources as a significant figure, he was one of many poets published in these texts. You keep saying he was significant, and yet you have failed to produce a single source or expert text that states the individual was significant in Somali poetry. I have included above examples of significant individuals in Somali poetry along with expert text clearly supporting that statement. Do you have any similar supporting evidence for this individual? Please be concise, we do not need links indicating he was a poet, do you have any sources stating that he was significant in Somali poetry? --Kzl55 (talk) 08:59, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
- I have provided enough to prove his significance, you just choose to ignore the evidence. From all the scholarly work he is featured on, compiling the best of the best poetry and numerous journals and his poems being thought in school. Also Said Sheikh Samatar, a prominent historian and scholar said the following on the poet Mohammed Abdullah Hassan: But I would rate him with half-a-dozen: Salaan Arabay, Ali Dhuuh, Raage Ugaas, Haji Muuse Ismail, and Ugaas Nur. I would put those in the same category[156] , signifies the importance of Ugaas Nuur.
- Having his poetry published does not equate to being seen in reliable sources as a significant figure, he was one of many poets published in these texts. You keep saying he was significant, and yet you have failed to produce a single source or expert text that states the individual was significant in Somali poetry. I have included above examples of significant individuals in Somali poetry along with expert text clearly supporting that statement. Do you have any similar supporting evidence for this individual? Please be concise, we do not need links indicating he was a poet, do you have any sources stating that he was significant in Somali poetry? --Kzl55 (talk) 08:59, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
- He was very significant as I've already illustrated above. That's not for you to decide. Leave that to the anthropologists who have included his poems in their finest work, from among all the poets and poems they could have chosen, they chose his and put him among other significant poets. Cheers --AlaskaLava (talk) 01:24, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
- WP:BRD is very clear, "If your edit gets reverted, do not revert again", it is not up to you to decide when the discussion is over, this is a matter of consensus. If you would like to request a 3rd opinion you are free to do so. The sources you provided indicate that he was a Somali poet, but not a single source indicates that he was a significant figure in Somali poetry, this is the issue being discussed. --Kzl55 (talk) 00:59, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
- There is no need to bombard the discussion with citations that do not answer the question. Being mentioned in a handful of sources indicates that he was a poet, to discuss him being a signifiant figure in Somali poetry you need reliable citations supporting such description. For instance, Hadrawi is "considered by many to be the greatest living Somali poet", this is the opinion of Daniel_Weissbort in [153]. Raage Ugaas is described as being "regarded as one of the greatest Somali poets" by Roland Greene in [154]. Academic authorities of the field describe these individuals as significant in Somali poetry. Do you have reliable sources stating that this individual was a significant figure in Somali poetry? --Kzl55 (talk) 23:21, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
- The issue of contention here is not whether he was a poet, its whether he was seen in reliable sources as a significant figure in Somali poetry. Do you have reliable sources stating that he was a significant figure in Somali poetry? --Kzl55 (talk) 21:51, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
- B. W. ANDRZEJEWSKI is Emeritus Professor of Cushitic Languages and Literatures in the University of London, where he was a faculty member of the School of Oriental and African Studies from 1952 to 1982 outlines in his most finest work on Somali poetry.
- "This affordable and beautifully produced book is a small jewel in the field of Somali studies, as it is the fruit of over forty years of dedicated linguistic and literary scholarship by one of the most thorough and accurate translators and analysts of Somali poetry, B. W. Andrzejewski." ―International Journal of African Historical Studies
- Somalia has been called "a nation of poets." This volume makes available in beautiful English translation the very best, and most universal, of Somali poetry, from the 19th century to the present. With appendixes covering the oral and written medium, the pronunciation of Somali words, alliteration and scansion, selected bibliography, and sources. --AlaskaLava (talk) 13:28, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
- We are going in circles. As stated above, being mentioned in a handful of sources may indicate that he was a poet, but to ascertain whether he was a significant figure in Somali poetry, you need more than that. WP:EXCEPTIONAL states that "Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources". The fact that this exceptional claim is not covered by multiple mainstream sources is a red flag. I have given two examples above for Hadrawi and Rage Ugas, both regarded by experts across multiple high quality sources to be significant figures in Somali poetry. Inclusion of this individual in the absence of multiple high quality sources would thus be undue. It seems we have reached an impasse, I suggest we wait for the 3rd opinion. --Kzl55 (talk) 17:03, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
- Somalia has been called "a nation of poets." This volume makes available in beautiful English translation the very best, and most universal, of Somali poetry, from the 19th century to the present. With appendixes covering the oral and written medium, the pronunciation of Somali words, alliteration and scansion, selected bibliography, and sources. --AlaskaLava (talk) 13:28, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
Third opinion requested. --Kzl55 (talk) 09:20, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
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Based on the information provided, it appears that there is no doubt that Ugas Nur is a notable Somali historical figure (that is, he is sufficiently notable to warrant an article on Wikipedia). There is also no doubt that he coined a number of poems in his lifetime, some of which have been recounted in texts, and he is therefore recognized as a poet (that is, one who has written poetry). However, I have not seen sufficient sources to support the assertion that he is recognized as a ‘significant figure’ in Somali poetry, and therefore I am of the overall opinion that he does not warrant inclusion in the list. Jack Frost (talk) 12:34, 20 June 2020 (UTC) |
- Many thanks, appreciate you taking the time to read through the above. --Kzl55 (talk) 13:58, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for your expediency and well-reasoned review, Jack Frost. El_C 14:59, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- Greetings, First Kzl55 argument was about him being notable, which he was. Then he went on to say there are not many books that mention him on Google books. Which I disproved.
- Then he went on to say it's about being one of the greatest, which is trivial to the argument.
- He fully ignores my arguments and Ugas Nur is not only taught in school[157] PDF[158] , but is featured in one the best scholarly works on Somali poetry An Anthology of Somali Poetry:"This affordable and beautifully produced book is a small jewel in the field of Somali studies, as it is the fruit of over forty years of dedicated linguistic and literary scholarship by one of the most thorough and accurate translators and analysts of Somali poetry, B. W. Andrzejewski." ―International Journal of African Historical Studies.
- Somalia has been called "a nation of poets." This volume makes available in beautiful English translation the very best, and most universal, of Somali poetry, from the 19th century to the present. With appendixes covering the oral and written medium, the pronunciation of Somali words, alliteration and scansion, selected bibliography, and sources.
- So if one of the best scholars on Somali poetry considers him significant enough to be featured in his book covering a handful poets from the 19th century to the present. How can individuals not call him significant.
- The individual also does not apply the same rules to other individuals mentioned on the list, who are even less significant than Ugas Nur and are not even featured on one of the best works on Somali poetry.
- Elmi Boodhari (1908 – 1940) – Early 20th century poet and pioneer in the genre of Somali love poems. He is popularly known by Somalis as the King of romance (Boqorki Jacaylka)[1]
- Ali Bu'ul (Cali Bucul) – 19th century poet, military leader and sultan, many of the most well known geeraar (short styled poems recited on a horse) came from ::his tongue and are still known today.
- Mohamed Ibrahim Warsame 'Hadrawi' – songwriter, philosopher, and Somali Poet Laureate; also dubbed the Somali Shakespeare.
- Ugas Nur –19th century Somali tribal King, he has produced numerous gabays (poems) which are still quoted to this day and taught in school.
- Hassan Sheikh Mumin – 20th century poet, playwright, broadcaster, actor and composer.
- Nuruddin Farah (born 1943) – Somali writer and winner of the 1998 Neustadt International Prize for Literature.
- Abdillahi Suldaan Mohammed Timacade (1920–1973) – prominent Somali poet known for his nationalist poems such as Kana siib Kana Saar.
- Mohamud Siad Togane (born 1943) – Somali-Canadian poet, professor, and political activist.
- Maxamed Daahir Afrax – Somali novelist and playwright. Afrax has published several novels and short stories in Somali and Arabic, and has also :::written two plays, the first being Durbaan Been ah ("A Deceptive Drum"), which was staged in Somalia in 1979. His major contribution in the field of theatre criticism :::is Somali Drama: Historical and Critical Study (1987).
- Gaarriye (1949 – 2012) – Somali poet, most notable for his famous poem Hagarlaawe.
- Nadifa Mohamed – Somali novelist. Winner of the 2010 Betty Trask Prize.
- Musa Haji Ismail Galal (1917–1980) – was a Somali writer, scholar, linguist, historian and polymath
- Farah Mohamed Jama Awl – Somali author best known for his historical fiction novels.
- Diriye Osman – Somali writer and visual artist. Winner of the 2014 Polari First Book Prize.
- Sofia Samatar – Somali professor and writer. Winner of the 2014 World Fantasy Award.
- Also Ugaas Nuur is mentioned in multiple works among the names of Raage Ugaas, who is considered one of the greatest, which proves his significance.
- Plus I have found another source stating he is a celebrity and famous poet.[159], again proving his significane as a poet, Cheers --AlaskaLava (talk) 15:41, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
References
- ^ Abdullahi, Mohamed Diriye (2001). Moahmed Diiriye Abdulahi : Culture and Customs of Somalia, p.76. ISBN 9780313313332.
- That's a legitimate objection which warrants a substantive response. El_C 16:21, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- AlaskaLAva, you have been asked to be concise previously, Wikipedia is not a forum. Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources per WP:EXCEPTIONAL, as such inclusion of this individual in the absence of multiple high quality sources would be undue. Let me remind you that it was you who suggested getting a third opinion as means of reaching consensus in the first place [160], and you have reiterated that stance in response to El C below. Jack has kindly gone through it and confirmed that whilst the poet may be notable for a stand-alone article, he is not presented in majority of reliable sources as a significant figure in Somali poetry. Objecting to the 3rd-opinion route that you have suggested yourself does not change the sourcing situation. I suggest we end it there and move on. --Kzl55 (talk) 16:23, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- Just to add, the first criteria of WP:POET is
The person is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by peers or successors
, it is clear that this individual is not widely cited in reliable sources as a significant figure in Somali poetry. Exceptional claims require exceptional sources as discussed above. Other POET criteria include:- The person is known for originating a significant new concept, theory, or technique.
- The person has created or played a major role in co-creating a significant or well-known work or collective body of work. In addition, such work must have been the primary subject of an independent and notable work (for example, a book, film, or television series, but usually not a single episode of a television series) or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews.
- The person's work (or works) has: (a) become a significant monument, (b) been a substantial part of a significant exhibition, (c) won significant critical attention, or (d) been represented within the permanent collections of several notable galleries or museums.
- Sources presented thus far do not satisfy any of these criteria. --Kzl55 (talk) 16:37, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- AlaskaLAva, regardless of the truth, the consensus version is the one decided by the 3rd Opinion procedure. The 3rd Opinion results codifies the consensus, for now. So you, at the moment, are facing a consensus version which is against inclusion. That's the result of the procedure. Yes, consensus can change, but it happens over time. Anyway, I am unprotecting the page and am mandating you to accept the exclusion for, say, three months. Then you can maybe launch an RfC, if you still feel that strongly about it. El_C 16:40, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- Yes I fully understand and for now will accept the consensus. Thank you for your time. --AlaskaLava (talk) 17:42, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- AlaskaLAva, regardless of the truth, the consensus version is the one decided by the 3rd Opinion procedure. The 3rd Opinion results codifies the consensus, for now. So you, at the moment, are facing a consensus version which is against inclusion. That's the result of the procedure. Yes, consensus can change, but it happens over time. Anyway, I am unprotecting the page and am mandating you to accept the exclusion for, say, three months. Then you can maybe launch an RfC, if you still feel that strongly about it. El_C 16:40, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
- That's a legitimate objection which warrants a substantive response. El_C 16:21, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
Full protection
Folks, might I submit that until consensus is reached, the status quo ante version should be the version that would be displayed, per WP:ONUS, which reads: the onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content.
If you reach an impasse, here, on the article talk page, there are dispute resolution requests you can avail yourself with, like 3rd Opinion or Request for Comment. El_C 00:53, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
- Agreed. Many thanks --Kzl55 (talk) 01:01, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
- I fully stand behind this. Thank you! --AlaskaLava (talk) 01:24, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 03:24, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion
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Arabic language
The Arabic language is also spoken by Somalis. For this reason, Arabic should be added to the infobox. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:4B00:9008:9200:8414:F175:20BA:F49 (talk) 15:05, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
Arab scholars
@Toltol15: My concern is only this: and no Arab scholar links them to any Qurayshi member or tribe.
The sources say clearly enough that there is no link to the Quraysh. But which source says that "no Arab scholar" makes that connection ? --Rsk6400 (talk) 19:54, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Rsk6400: Do you have a reliable source from an Arab scholar who says they descend from a Qurayshi member or tribe? Toltol15 (talk) 16:14, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- Please take a look at WP:BURDEN. It clearly says,
Any material lacking a reliable source directly supporting it may be removed and should not be restored without an inline citation to a reliable source.
--Rsk6400 (talk) 18:39, 8 November 2020 (UTC) - That's not the right question here. Even if we search and can't find such a source, doesn't mean that one doesn't exist, and to conclude that it doesn't would be original research. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:32, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- I provided sources and they have references of Arab scholars, if any Somali clan descended from a Qurayshi member or tribe the sources would have stated it clearly, if you guys have a source that states otherwise I have no objection to the removal of the line but as it stands the line is not WP:Source, WP:Burden, or WP:OR. Toltol15 (talk) 22:04, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
- You're getting the burden demonstrate verifiability the wrong way round again. Unless there's a source that clearly establishes that no Arab scholar links them, the article shouldn't claim that. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:14, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
- Please take a look at WP:BURDEN. It clearly says,
Discussion on what the primary topic of this article should be
People of Somali ethnicity and people of Somali nationality are both referred to by the term "Somalis". This conflation of ethnicity and nationality is also characteristic of other ethnicities and nationalities. The implications of these conflations for the primary topic of Wikipedia articles has been discussed at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ethnic groups#"Germans", "French people" etc - ethnicity vs nationality. This issue is also of relevance to our article onSomalis. That leads to the question: What should be the primary topic of this article?
- People of Somali ethnicity
- People of Somali nationality (i.e. people with Somali citizenship)
- The term "Somalis" itself (per WP:WORDISSUBJECT)
- There is no primary topic for the term "Somalis"
- Something else (feel free to elaborate)
Krakkos (talk) 15:34, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
- People of Somali ethnicity: Somalia is almost completely homogeneous ethnically. It is not worth trying to expand the article for a few thousands of other people. Super Ψ Dro 22:14, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 9 May 2021
![]() | This edit request to Somalis has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Can I fix the grammar in the paragraph and add the Somali flag, please? 71.195.20.108 (talk) 17:39, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
Not done: requests for decreases to the page protection level should be directed to the protecting admin or to Wikipedia:Requests for page protection if the protecting admin is not active or has declined the request. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:57, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
Somaliland
@Cordless Larry: Could you explain why my edits keep getting removed? Somaliland has conducted its own census that estimates the population to be at around 3,5 million (previous source I added turns out to not be as reliable as I thought). Given that Somaliland is in almost all HOA-related infoboxes that would be the informal consensus then; to include Somaliland, especially considering the fact that Somaliland is the only country with an almost 99% Somali population.
Please share your thoughts Dabaqabad (talk) 03:25, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
- As I explained in my edit summary, the footnote you tried to add to the Somalia entry doesn't work, so readers would expect the figure to include Somaliland. It's also unclear how you've calculated the figure for Somalia minus Somaliland. Could you explain that here? Cordless Larry (talk) 06:04, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
I calculated it by using the source but excluding the five regions that make up Somaliland that Somalia claims but has no jurisdiction over. Somalia has no ability to conduct a census in Somaliland due to its lack of sovereignty or even influence in the area. Dabaqabad (talk) 18:16, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
- Could you list those five regions here for those of us who aren't familiar? Cordless Larry (talk) 09:42, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
@Cordless Larry: Those five claimed regions are Awdal, Woqooyi Galbeed, Togdheer, Sanaag and Sool. Somalia has no jurisdiction in those regions, and in the case of Woqooyi Galbeed that region has ceased to exist and now functions as the regions of Maroodi Jeex and Saaxil.
Both Somaliland's own census[1] and the UN census used for Somalia's figure[2] confirm that Somaliland's population is at 3,5 million, a census Somalia has not conducted and is unable to conduct nor organize as it has no effective sovereignty in the area. Dabaqabad (talk) 15:34, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
- When I deduct the population of those regions from the total given in the UN report, I don't get the figure of 8,895,715 that you used here. Am I missing something? Cordless Larry (talk) 15:44, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
@Cordless Larry: Sorry, I recalculated it and the total became 8,808,715. Is that the same figure you got? Dabaqabad (talk) 04:23, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, that's what I get. What do other editors think about separating out these figures? If we are to do this, how should it be noted? Cordless Larry (talk) 07:30, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
I don't see a problem with presenting the Somaliland figures seperately if Somaliland has conducted it's own census. Amirah talk 20:29, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
@Cordless Larry: Sorry for my late reply. We could add a note to Somalia's figure that highlights the fact that Somaliland isn't included. Dabaqabad (talk) 19:36, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
@Cordless Larry: So what's the verdict? Dabaqabad (talk) 19:21, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- It seems there's no opposition, so I think it's just a case of you needing to make sure the explanatory note works. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:11, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
Understood. I'll try my best. Thanks! Dabaqabad (talk) 14:26, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
- The note isn't working, Dabaqabad. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:25, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
@Cordless Larry: That's very strange. What seems to be the problem? Dabaqabad (talk) 11:54, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- I'm not an expert on notes, Dabaqabad, but the cite error that appears at the bottom of the page might tell you what you need to know. Cordless Larry (talk) 12:05, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
@Cordless Larry: Fixed it. Seems like I forgot to add the reflist template for the note. It should work now. Dabaqabad (talk) 12:09, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
References
- ^ "Somaliland in figures" (PDF). Ministry of National Planning and Development. 2015. p. 4. Retrieved 18 October 2020.
- ^ "Population Estimation Survey 2014: For the 18 pre-war regions of Somalia" (PDF). UNFPA. October 2014. p. 22. Retrieved 21 April 2020.
Semi-protected edit request on 24 May 2021
![]() | This edit request to Somalis has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
+ Caption text Abdimajid Osman (talk) 15:26, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Run n Fly (talk) 15:52, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
Remove picture. COPY RIGHT INFRINGEMENT
Hi,
Please remove picture posted under ‘Art’ section, captioned “ Women with Kohl eyes”. Remove this or else this will be taken to court.
Regards, Owner of the picture Lola21020 (talk) 00:27, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
- At Commons:File:Ucidlhd29.png, it is stated that this is a still from a YouTube video that was available for reuse under a Creative Commons license. If you believe this is incorrect, please explain further, Lola21020. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:27, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
Hi Larry, this is indeed incorrect the YouTube video was posted without my mothers permission as she was attending an event. My mother does not want her picture posted on Wikipedia. Also, that video is no longer available on YouTube as the account it was associated with was removed. Again, please remove this picture.
Regards, Sam Lola21020 (talk) 08:21, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
- Sorry, I've only just seen your reply, Lola21020. I can't remove the image as I'm not an administrator on Wikimedia Commons. If you want to nominate it for deletion, please see Commons:Deletion requests. However, please note that permission is not necessarily required to post images of people on the internet, so your request might be denied. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:40, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 11 December 2021
![]() | This edit request to Somalis has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change the population data numbers from 2014 survey to 2019 world population prospects by United Nations. 213.89.33.111 (talk) 17:20, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
Not done: Edit requests require that the requester state what changes they want in "X to Y". Please link directly to the source of this data and state explicitly which numbers in the article should be changed and what they should be changed to. Cheers! —Sirdog (talk) 03:43, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
Slaves of Bantu
Some of these Bantu people appear to have been early settlers in Somalia, likely from before the period of settlement by the Cushite Somalis.[12][13] Complementing archaeological documentation of the spread of the Bantu to the coastal region is the linguistic data afforded by Ehret, Nurse, and Hinnebusch.[14] According to this information, a northern coastal branch of Eastern Bantu-speakers, called the proto-Sabaki by linguists, appeared in the interior of the northeastern Tanganyika coast sometime around AD 500 and advanced northwards as far as the Jubba River in Somalia. By the end of the first millennium, these had evolved into increasingly distinct dialects, well on their way to becoming the separate Swahili, Pokomo, Elwana, MijiKenda, and Comorian languages of recent centuries.[15] From the work of Guthrie and Nurse,[16] it is clear that the early coastal Sabaki-speakers primarily were agriculturalists with knowledge of pottery. They cultivated a variety of yams, vegetables, beans, and bananas, along with cereals, while they kept goats, sheep, chickens, and a few cattle.
These agriculturist people tradition later birth a legendary city called Shungwaya Shungwaya was found in Somalia know that Shungwaya has been a historical town.[17] Its ruins are still to be found near the present Port Durnford Bay in the south of Somalia.[18] the historicity of Shungwaya seems beyond doubt. First, as shown above, it appears in the traditions of such a large number of disparate, though related, peoples. And, second, Shungwaya was known to the Portuguese already by the sixteenth century.[19] The Book of Zenj places it at Bur Gao on the southern Somalia coast; Burton, on the other hand, places it near the Tana River;[20] while most sources locate it on the mainland littoral just north of Lamu.[21] locations given for Shungwaya in the traditions might have stretched from the Jubba/Webbi Shebeelle River system southwards to the Tana River. It included the coast and offshore islands and reached inland for an indefinite distance.[22]
The date of its origin is open to the argument since the region described apparently always has been inhabited. Yet traditionally Shungwaya was destroyed in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries when the Oromo forced its inhabitants to emigrate to the south and to the coastal islands.[23][24] Shungwaya represents what was the pre-'Shirazi', pre-Islamic culture, The roots of a traditional social, and economic milieu from which northern coastal civilization emerged as a distinct cultural and religious entity.
While traditions exist which say that Shungwaya was ruled' by a mysterious group called the Kilio, the meaning of ruling' (as is the meaning of migration').[25] Along the coast, however, Bantu-speaking agriculturalists were numerically stronger. Thus, the villages and towns of the Bantu (or early Swahili), especially when they were on offshore islands, had the advantage, and it was the pastoralists like the Garre who came to the coastal fringe and islands as clients (shegat).[26] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nurduube100 (talk • contribs) 01:40, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
- Your addition is original research (which is against wikipedia's rules, see article no original research), using a patchwork of different sources to come to your own conclusion. The general consensus among Somali historians is that the Somali Bantu trace their origins largely to the Indian Ocean slave trade that took place between what is now Mozambique/Tanzania/Kenya and the Arab world. I have removed the original research and added reliable sources such as Medieval travellers who visited Southern Somalia in the Middle Ages and documented their account. AzanianPearl (talk) 12:40, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
World Bank open later
This information isn't updated why ! Although I was see late time but I'm not happy Wikipedia where he is must pupular publisher's in world. Plz update this old information of Somalia nation. 196.190.186.114 (talk) 13:42, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 19 February 2022
![]() | This edit request to Somalis has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
173.183.161.26 (talk) 03:19, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
I am requesting an edit because a lot of data that is put on here has changed. The numbers have declines or increased.
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cannolis (talk) 03:32, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
I am somalia from Portugal
The people of Kushiti origin live in Hargeisa, Somalia, Hargeisa, Burao, Mogadishu. Burana originally came from Ethiopia. darood Ismail jabarti is arabic shanshida from Portuguese midgaha from Israel mostly kushiti and from Ethiopia 2A02:A03F:856F:9100:C5AF:F636:864F:EA8D (talk) 04:34, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
population of states in somalia:-
1. somaliland estimates :- 2,720,000 million people 2. puntland estimates 8,990,000 milion people 3. jubbaland .............5,660,000,,,, 4. galmudug ...........1,220,000,,,, 5 hirshabelle state .....1,100,000,,, 6. south west ,,,,,,,, 3,500,000,,,, 7. Banadir region 6700,200,,, 197.231.202.192 (talk) 03:13, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
Please adjust unsourced text on 20,000 Somalis arriving 10 years ago
Please replace
An estimated 20,000 Somalis emigrated to the U.S. state of Minnesota some ten years ago and the Twin Cities (Minneapolis and Saint Paul) now have the highest population of Somalis in North America.[230]
with
The first wave of Somalis emigrated to the U.S. state of Minnesota in the early 1980s, and the Twin Cities (Minneapolis and Saint Paul) now have the highest population of Somalis in North America.[230]
Reason: The cited reference (dating from 2004) makes no mention of 20,000, and makes no mention of "ten years ago" whenever that is supposed to be. Instead, the source mentions the first wave of Somalies arriving in the early 1980s's based on two individual cases who arrived in 1980 and 1982. 2A00:23C6:549D:C301:DD55:BB64:77EE:BC30 (talk) 12:40, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 27 May 2023
![]() | This edit request to Somalis has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Hi the population of somalia is currently 18million alot of the numbers are inaccurate there are 10million somalis in Ethiopia not 4 million there is more mistakes too 102.68.79.171 (talk) 12:55, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Actualcpscm (talk) 13:11, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
Religion
This article is misleading, I know personally Somalis who are Shia Muslims, not all Somalis are Sunnis. 120.17.229.187 (talk) 07:40, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
- No one those are not somalis bro 41.220.239.166 (talk) 11:30, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 30 August 2023
![]() | This edit request to Somalis has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
88.113.71.174 (talk) 21:29, 30 August 2023 (UTC)i would like to request a edit when it comes to ethnic somali population across the world the number on the page (23 million) does not add up mathematically when you add together the populations of each countrie below on top of that some of the population estimates are outdated. 88.113.71.174 (talk) 21:29, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ayakanaa ( t · c ) 04:41, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
Golden Chains
The line in question is "The Macrobians were a regional power reputed for their advanced architecture and gold wealth, which was so plentiful that they shackled their prisoners in golden chains."
I'm not so sure that the source here is reliable. It is a religious text, and I can't find any other sources for this claim. I would contend that it should be removed unless a better source can be found. Let me know if I need to request this in another way, I'm not too familiar with edits that aren't basic. Rderdwien (talk) 05:03, 10 December 2023 (UTC)