Talk:List of unarmed African Americans killed by law enforcement officers in the United States

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Rename "African American" to Black

Hi, as I mentioned in the deletion discussion, sources usually seem to refer to "Black" rather than "African American" victims when they discuss the topic of US police shooting unarmed Black people. The difference is being born in the US.[1] Amadou Diallo was shot unarmed. He was a Black Guinean immigrant, so not African American. Wouldn't it make sense to rename this list to "Black" and include such cases? Police don't usually know the ones they shoot, so I'd imagine non-African American Black people are as concerned about these statistics as African Americans. ‎⠀Trimton⠀‎‎ 07:42, 23 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - The source you cite is more nuanced than "the difference is being born in the US", and even interviews a Jamaican-born man who says, "I have taken on this label of African American because of where I live." The first sentence of this article, itself, wikilinks to African American - which has (or had, as of the moment I'm writing this comment, at least) this to say in its WP:LEDE about the term:

The term African American generally denotes descendants of enslaved Africans who are from the United States,[2][3][4] while some Black immigrants or their children may also come to identify (themselves) or be identified (by others) as African-American.[5]

In other words, it isn't so straightforward. Danazar (talk) 17:58, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you're right and apologies for my unnuanced definition. It seems though that Black is the more inclusive term, and that virtually all African Americans should identify as Black? ‎⠀Trimton⠀‎‎ 18:57, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Not all black people are African American. Here's the difference". CBS News. Retrieved 2021-07-23.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: url-status (link)
  2. ^ Carol Lynn Martin, Richard Fabes (2008). Discovering Child Development. Cengage Learning. p. 19. ISBN 978-1111808112. Retrieved October 25, 2014. most (but not all) Americans of African descent are grouped racially as Black; however, the term African American refers to an ethnic group, most often to people whose ancestors experienced slavery in the United States (Soberon, 1996). Thus, not all Blacks in the United States are African-American (for example, some are from Haiti and others are from the Caribbean).
  3. ^ Don C. Locke, Deryl F. Bailey (2013). Increasing Multicultural Understanding. SAGE Publications. p. 106. ISBN 978-1483314211. Retrieved March 7, 2018. African American refers to descendants of enslaved Black people who are from the United States. The reason we use an entire continent (Africa) instead of a country (e.g., Irish American) is because slave masters purposefully obliterated tribal ancestry, language, and family units in order to destroy the spirit of the people they enslaved, thereby making it impossible for their descendants to trace their history prior to being born into slavery.
  4. ^ "The size and regional distribution of the black population". Lewis Mumford Center. Archived from the original on October 12, 2007. Retrieved October 1, 2007.
  5. ^ Forson, Tracy Scott (2018-02-21). "Who is an 'African American'? Definition evolves as USA does". USA Today. Retrieved 2020-08-30.

Is there similar list on Wikipedia?

Is there a Wikipage listing all white unarmed people who were killed by LEO? Or would the list be too long to even entertain? And is there a list of Asian, Latino, Arabian unarmed people being killed by LEO somewhere to be found on Wikipedia? Maybe they are not worth as much as black people according to Wikipedia community? 96.20.197.194 (talk) 04:41, 5 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I created this article because there did not seem to be such a list online despite its political salience and importance, particularly since other lists were either incomplete or inaccurate and listed all Black people killed by police, both unarmed and armed. A broader list would be noteworthy and worth creating. OctaviusIII (talk) 15:08, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
They don't want a list of actual innocent people who are killed by police, regardless of race. Wikipedia pushes a very liberal narrative and any attempt to insert truth and common sense into the articles will be blocked.
How about we also have a list of black people who are killed by other black people. That is the real problem instead of pushing the narrative that police are going around just shooting black people for no reason.
If you go by actual interactions with police then unarmed white people are more likely to be shot and killed by police. Wikipedia wouldn't want people putting that truth out there though. 174.96.203.119 (talk) 15:22, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well said. The fact that they use a far-left opinion site like “newsone” as a source in many of these articles further confirm their bias. Bjoh249 (talk) 03:45, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This list for African-Americans is highly relevant for #BlackLivesMatter, but what about BIPOC in general, Latinx, etc.? In general, are there reliable external sources for this data and related data for Latinx, etc.? Fookault (talk) 10:10, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Darren Boykin

>https://apnews.com/article/texas-lawsuits-cab807b3c8bf8f901b998ca895a53002 >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z0f6sUuuPc >https://thegrio.com/2021/09/02/texas-police-arrest-video-released-boykin-family-lawsuit/ --91.54.27.221 (talk) 15:30, 5 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Selection criteria

Hi all,

This article previously had no clear selection criteria.

I have added a slightly-altered version of the boilerplate text used on all Lists of killings by law enforcement officers in the United States, which reads (for example):

This is a list of people reported killed by non-military law enforcement officers in the United States in May 2023, whether in the line of duty or not, and regardless of reason or method. The listing documents the occurrence of a death, making no implications regarding wrongdoing or justification on the part of the person killed or officer involved. Killings are arranged by date of the incident that caused death. Different death dates, if known, are noted in the description. The table below lists 41 people.
This is a dynamic list and may never be able to satisfy particular standards for completeness. You can help by adding missing items with reliable sources.

I'm not totally sure how this text came into being, but I believe @Primefac: (hi!) had something to do with its implementation and the standardization of those lists.

The boilerplate message I added to this article is:

This is a list of African Americans reported killed while unarmed by non-military law enforcement officers in the United States. Events are listed whether they took place in the line of duty or not, and regardless of reason or method. The listing documents the occurrence of a death, making no implications regarding wrongdoing or justification on the part of the person killed or officer involved. Killings are arranged by date of the incident that caused death. Different death dates, if known, are noted in the description.
This is a dynamic list and may never be able to satisfy particular standards for completeness. You can help by adding missing items with reliable sources.

Because of this boilerplate message, I have re-added previously-removed deaths by car, as I believe they qualify for inclusion according the above text.

Please discuss revisions to the selection criteria here. Wracking 💬 00:15, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Philando Castile case?

How exactly are we defining "unarmed"? Philando Castile told the police he was carrying a firearm, although it's disputed whether he'd actually taken it out of his pocket when the cop decided to open fire. Muzilon (talk) 11:10, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • I removed Castile from the list. According to this NBC News source, he told police he was armed just prior to being shot. Exclusion from this list doesn't necessarily justify the law enforcement killing. However, to be included on such a list, it must meet the list's defined criteria. Minnemeeples (talk) 15:40, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It sounds like a case of "suicide by cop" and there's another wki list for that. Fookault (talk) 10:19, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is there also a wiki article dealing with white people killed by law enforcement?

And if not why the bias favouring black Americans? 2003:DA:C715:3100:F554:3342:BF86:606E (talk) 01:13, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to create one if you wish. GGOTCC (talk) 23:41, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The focus is on unarmed civilians, so if you have a credible external source for such statistics, by race, gender, sexual orientation, etc., do let us know. Fookault (talk) 10:17, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

List of Police killed by African Americans

Where is that page? 2601:47:101:B480:9995:B8C6:AF0D:C02A (talk) 13:53, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Make it yourself if you think its that important buddy. --A Cynical Idealist (talk) 19:45, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Kathryn Johnston and Aiyana Jones

Is there any reason these two shouldn't be included?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Kathryn_Johnston https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Aiyana_Jones

Raoulduke25 (talk) 22:33, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Aiyana Jones is already included and Kathryn Johnston had a revolver. Hope this helps. TheAmazingRaspberry (talk) 00:59, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OK, thank you. That definitely makes sense. Raoulduke25 (talk) 11:42, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Re-ordering of tables into most-recent-first

I think it's important to have the most recent information at the top of each table, by default? Can anyone help to re-order the info manually? I've done 2024 and 2023 so far. Quite laborious - why isn't there an easy task editor widget for this? Fookault (talk) 10:14, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Split

This page for this list is becoming very long. WP:SIZESPLIT is recommended at 15000 words but we are at 36000+ words. Perhaps we can restructure and follow the example of List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States or Lists_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_States. 142.113.140.146 (talk) 16:40, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I also feel that this page should be restructured somehow, since the most recent entries (2024) are wayyy down at the bottom. Any other ideas? Fookault (talk) 11:48, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Unarmed" qualifier not followed in multiple instances...remove from title.

There are dozens of entries on this page that mention the individual killed as possessing a knife, gun, or other weapon, with no information to the contrary. The page has become a de facto list of all Black individuals killed by law enforcement, not just unarmed ones. Suggest removing 'unarmed' from the title. KnnNike (talk) 15:36, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This has already been brought up at AfD:
  • Delete "unarmed" is an overused word. This is a clear example of POV pushing. Some of these indviduals have weapons on them, some of them their having weapons is disputed, and some were in the process of using things like a vehicle as a weapon when killed which makes them clearly not unarmed by any measure. Some people have even used phrases like "unarmed knife wieder" which makes no sense at all.John Pack Lambert (talk) 12:52, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment these seem like issues that can be resolved with editing and discussion (e.g. defining what is "unarmed" and which incidents belong on the list). Deleting would be WP:BATHWATER Qwaiiplayer (talk) 13:00, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Exactly, let's stick to the actual WP:DEL-REASONs. ‎⠀Trimton⠀‎‎ 10:14, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Concur with above comments; if there is ambiguity or disagreement about what "unarmed" means, that is enough to impact inclusion / exclusion of a particular incident (for example), the appropriate place to resolve the ambiguity is the article's Talk page -- not a proposal for deletion. Vague undefined allegations of "POV pushing" are likewise unhelpful to this discussion. Danazar (talk) 15:52, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
"removing 'unarmed' from the title" makes the article non-notable and eligible for deletion. Consensus was to remove the problematic entries. 142.113.140.146 (talk) 19:48, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I agree. The main relevance of the information is that the victims are 'unarmed', while the police response to armed offenders is arguably justifiable. Fookault (talk) 11:43, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Search for details of Leroy Martin shooting by Pond Valley PD, USA

Help will be appreciated with finding the details of the fatal shooting of Leroy Martin by Pond Valley PD, USA. The exact date, age of Leroy Martin, and precise location of Pond Valley, are unknown. The shooting is reconstructed as a case study in Jon J. Nordby's textbook, Scientific Foundations of Crime Scene Reconstruction: Introducing Method to Mayhem (entire chapter 6).

Martin was surrounded by eight officers, responding to a phone call about a "young black man walking suspiciously down the middle of the street talking to himself". After Martin ignored police instructions and kept walking, he was shot twice. An internal review of the incident declared the shooting justified. However, Nordby's reconstruction of the scene found that police claims of Martin threatening officers with a broken bottle were not corroborated by the forensic facts.

That Sunday morning, Martin was on his way home after staying over at a friend's place. At that hour, there was no traffic in the area. He was in school and an aspiring dancer, with no criminal record or prior incidents involving the police.

And finally: Martin had been totally deaf since birth. Fookault (talk) 00:00, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You might find more help at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Black_Lives_Matter. This talkpage is only for discussing changes to the list. 142.113.140.146 (talk) 19:38, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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