Talk:Homeric Hymns

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Featured articleHomeric Hymns is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
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DateProcessResult
May 18, 2024Good article nomineeListed
July 1, 2024Featured article candidatePromoted
Did You Know
A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on June 18, 2024.
The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that the ancient Homeric Hymns influenced the works of James Joyce, Alfred Hitchcock and Neil Gaiman?
Current status: Featured article

Tag at the top

This article has 3 references, all slanted the same. The Homeric Hymns are not of Homer, they say. There is no Homer. This is a shallow treatment. What about the hymn to Apollo, in which the author identifies himself? If the hymns are all the same style, why are some attributed to much later times? Style is an indicator of date. I would expect to see a few different views and more of the evidence and the problems. No one view should be presented as the way scholars are treating the topic now. I note also one of the authoritative scholars is not even within a century of now. Not that that makes any difference, but we need more of the other points of view, not unsupported statements and slanted presumptions..Branigan 00:55, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

We don't create views; we cite them. If you have a cite from a reputable scholar that disagrees, add it. If you have no cite, it's possible that one view does in fact present the consensus of how scholars are treating the topic now.--Prosfilaes (talk) 01:11, 15 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well. I did not state or imply the creation of a new view so your one-liner is misdirected. What you invite me to do is self-contradictory. If I were to correct it, the tag would not be needed. If I do not correct it the tag is needed. I understand your point of view. You want it fixed, put up or shut up, am I right? I did not agree to fix it right now. As editor I put the tag on to mark that it needs fixing, as is the custom in WP. I think it should stay on until the problem is fixed. You do not say that the tag is wrong, you only demand answers now. I'm to do the work, am I? I note that a WP employee looked at it (an administrator) and made sure it was formatted correctly, but left it on. He reverted some minor correction to the tag. Apparently I did not understand the format. So that is where we stand. I oppose removal of the tag though no one has suggested it. You seem to speak as an outsider to the topic. I assure you there will be no difficulty at all finding other points of view. The main problem with these Homer articles is that a person or persons apparently of minimal knowledge comandeered them to try and force a narrow point of view on the public. That isn't right, and many of the articles have the tags saying so applied by different editors. I have only asked that it be done. As matter of fact I do not do it momentariy because I am working on other Homer articles and do not wish to have too much on my plate. I do intend to work on it but I'm not sure when. Meanwhile the public needs to know that it is not quite right. I believe this is a standard procedure here at WP. I hope I have explained all this fully as you have a right to expect, being a credible user. I note also that the administrators looking at my work are WP employees, who seem more authoritative. Well, unless you have something new, I will read your comments, if any, but I may not reply.Botteville (talk) 14:22, 22 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No, administrators are not WP employees. You still have not given a single cite.--Prosfilaes (talk) 23:45, 22 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Quick reply, on the fly. Bye and bye. Oh my. Yes they are, no they aren't, yes they are, no they aren't. You sound like a relative. I didn't say they were, read it again. I don't have time for this level of bickering pseudocritique. Perhaps I should make a better summary. The problem is nothing the addition of a few cites or the changing of a cite can fix! The article is too small. It needs to be rewritten. For one thing, the intro should define or summarize the definition. It should not be used as a vehicle for editor opinion the way it is. All of those opinionations need to be supported. It isn't a case of throwing in an extra reference. First you present the topic. What are the Homeric Hymns and how long and why have they been called what they are? This definition should be completely non-committal without feeding the reader your opinion or any opinion. Then, and only then, can you delve into the validity of the definition and present whatever views there are to present. I do not care what language your name is in, good organization is the same in any language. So, I cannot justly bicker with you about what the article says right now. It properly needs to say a lot more. It needs, in other words, a rewrite. That is why the tag is there. I would do it but I'm working on more basic things. WP came up so fast and is so extensive that almost anywhere the links lead requires a lot of work. I'm getting there but it takes time. I went from Homer to the Alexandrines and thence to the Diadochi. I will get back to here unless someone else does it first, just not yet. I got to go now. See you probably in a month or two, provided you say anything that seems to warrant a reply.Botteville (talk) 22:50, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You've still provided zero evidence that it's feeding the reader opinion instead of established fact. You've offered not a single cite that the statement at the top of the article that the author of the poems is not Homer is not universally held among scolars. You have, however, engaged in repeated personal insult.--Prosfilaes (talk) 11:01, 5 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Thucydides didn't attribute the hymns to Homer

The claim that the Homeric Hymns have been "uncritically attributed to Homer himself in antiquity" cites Thucydides who only attributed to Homer one of the hymns to Apollo, not all or even several of them. There's no evidence that that one particular hymn is not, in fact, by Homer himself, and there is no further clarification why the rest of the hymns are attributed to Homer if they had been, and by whom.

In fact, other ancient Greeks make mentions of Homeridae as possible authors of the hymns, so it doesn't seem that they were at all "uncritically attributed to Homer himself in antiquity" at least up until the Hellenistic period. 

Liviu- (talk) 21:56, 24 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

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Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Homeric Hymns/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: UndercoverClassicist (talk · contribs) 10:22, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: The Morrison Man (talk · contribs) 21:33, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]


I'll be taking a look at the article and should be back with comments in the next few days. The Morrison Man (talk) 21:33, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking it on: looking forward to your comments. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:15, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@The Morrison Man: Sorry to nudge, but any update? UndercoverClassicist T·C 11:51, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies for the major delay, I've been quite sick recently. I've included the notes for the sections composition and collection and transmission below, the rest will follow within 24 hours. If you have any questions or things are unclear, let me know! The Morrison Man (talk) 22:40, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks -- replies below to this first batch, looking forward to the second. UndercoverClassicist T·C 08:52, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've addressed these comments where required. The next batch will be up in a few hours. The Morrison Man (talk) 12:38, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@The Morrison Man: No rush, but any news on those? UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:28, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It seems I forgot to publish my edit, I'll get them to you ASAP. Apologies for the late reply, my internet has been out for the past two days. The Morrison Man (talk) 14:50, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My sincerest apologies for taking this long. I've published the rest of my comments with this edit. Having looked over the entire article, it adheres to the GA criteria. When we've worked through this last set of comments I will be able to pass it. The Morrison Man (talk) 22:49, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Composition

  • “though the Hymn to Ares is considerably later” - Maybe change this to something like “though the Hymn to Ares was made much later”.
  • “are composed in dactylic hexameter” - Perhaps this could be explained, as you do for the following mention of formulae.
  • “one of the Homeridae,” - Swap out the comma for a colon.
  • “hymns’ comparative absence” - Comparative could probably be left out here.
  • “However, few direct statements denying Homer's authorship of the Hymns survive from antiquity: in the second century CE, the Greek geographer Pausanias maintained their attribution to Homer.” - I think this would work better as two separate sentences, cut off at the colon. That would make something like: “However, few direct statements denying Homer’s authorship of the Hymns survive from antiquity. The Greek geographer Pausanias maintained their attribution to Homer in the second century CE.”.
    • I'm not sure it would, as the second part follows from the first: with a full stop, the thought becomes isolated and the connection lost. It's not the shortest sentence, but I don't think it's long enough at 27 words to make splitting it essential. UndercoverClassicist T·C 08:52, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Collection and transmission

more to follow

Function

Reception

Antiquity

  • Maybe link lyric poetry?
  • Also link Dionysus, Dioscuri and Hermes.
  • “Few secure references” - Maybe change to something like Few confirmed references? Not sure that secure conveys what you're trying to say (which I assume is cases where we know for certain that the reference points to the Homeric Hymns).
    • "Secure" is typical in the literature for this kind of thing (as in "the evidence/case against him is secure": "confirmed", as a passive participle, has the problem that it implies that someone has confirmed them, which isn't the case. I've tried "definite" -- as you say, the point is that we're not always sure whether the reference is to the Hymn itself, or simply to the story that is the source of the Hymn. UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:16, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • “while the didactic poem Phainomena by Aratus drew on the same poem” - and the didactic poem Phainomena by Aratus drew on the same hymn.
  • Link mythographer, if possible.
    • Hm: it only links to myth, at least at the moment, which I think would not be particularly useful (MOS:OVERLINK advises us to avoid linking common words unless they're being used in an unusual fashion) and would create a WP:SEAOFBLUE, which is also discouraged. In this instance, I think the costs outweigh the benefits: the word itself isn't particularly common, but "myth" is, and the -ographer suffix is also pretty widely understood.
  • Link Apollo
  • Some of the hymn titles are italicised, others are not. I’d suggest making this consistent throughout.
    • Where the title itself is used (e.g. Later in the Aeneid, the account of the theft of Hercules's cattle by the monster Cacus is based upon that of the theft of Apollo's cattle by Hermes in the Homeric Hymn to Hermes, it is italicised. Where the words "hymn(s) to X" are used simply as a description (e.g. His own works quoted from the hymns to Demeter and Apollo, it isn't, and "hymn" is lc. I think this is consistent; let me know if I've missed any. UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:16, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Late Antiquity to Renaissance

Early modern period onwards

List of the Homeric Hymns

  • What is the reasoning for redlinking some names of individual Hymns but not others?
    • The Hymns have wildly different lengths and literary/scholarly impact. The Hymn to Demeter could very easily be a very long article, as could the Hymn to Aphrodite and the Hymn to Hermes: all are very regularly discussed in scholarship, sometimes at book length, and have had reasonably large cultural influence. Others, such as the Hymn to Dionysus are comparatively short and have not had those things. It might be possible to write a GNG-keeping article on some of them (particularly the longer Dionysus hymn), but I've chosen to redlink only those which I think have really compelling cases. Some, like the Hymn to Hosts, haven't a snowball's chance unless a whole new branch of scholarship springs up. UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:16, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's all of my comments. Thank you for your patience and once again apologies for taking so long to review. The Morrison Man (talk) 22:49, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All very much appreciated: replies above and edits in the article. UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:16, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Most of the comments were taken care of nicely, I've left a few more reactions and some further comments based on your replies. The Morrison Man (talk) 13:51, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Back to you: I think I've got all of those. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:38, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That covers all of my comments then! Considering that the article passes all six Good Article Criteria, I'll pass it shortly. The Morrison Man (talk) 19:32, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The article has now been listed as a GA. Congratulations, and thank you once again for your patience during the review process!! (If you ever find yourself in need of a reviewer in the future, don't hesitate to leave a message on my talk page :)) The Morrison Man (talk) 19:38, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your efforts, wisdom and sharp eyes throughout: as is the way with the best reviews, I think the article has improved a great deal for the process. Likewise, do drop me a message if you'd like me to return the favour for one of your nominations. UndercoverClassicist T·C 21:26, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 13:01, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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  • Source: Richardson, Nicholas (2010). Three Homeric Hymns to Apollo, Hermes, and Aphrodite. Cambridge Greek and Latin Classics. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. p. 33. doi:10.1017/CBO9780511840296. ISBN 9780521451581.
Improved to Good Article status by UndercoverClassicist (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 22 past nominations.

UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:50, 20 May 2024 (UTC).[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
QPQ: Done.
Overall: A fascinating article! All ready to go. All of the hooks are cited and interesting - I would suggest either ALT1 or ALT2 for most main page interest.  Mystery Merrivale  (talk) 07:00, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

few comments

hey, UndercoverClassicist, great article! I'm not an expert and can't do a proper review, but maybe my few comments wouldn't be completely useless. I saw a bunch of sources that are not in the article, maybe you'll be interested: Formula and Formulaic by N. Postlethwaite, The Homeric Hymns, Cornutus, and the Mythographical Stream by Torres, and The Homeric Hymns as Oral Poetry; A Study of the Post-Homeric Oral Tradition by Notopoulos. I also think that a short excerpt from any hymn could be a nice addition to the article, what do you think? Artem.G (talk) 09:40, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Artem -- thanks for these: really useful. I hadn't seen the two JSTOR articles, and they'll certainly have some good material.
I did pass over the Cornutus chapter when putting the article together: from what I remember, it didn't really get much stronger than "there are some similarities between these two texts, and maybe some inspiration", and I tried in the Reception section to limit myself to only connections where there was a clear one-way path between the Hymns and the author, especially as so many of the stories in them are widely known outside the Hymns. I'll give it another look and see if I missed anything, though.
We could put in a short bit of a hymn (some are short enough to include in their entirety): I might stick the Hymn to Hosts up in the "Context and function" section, as it illustrates at least one likely context of their performance. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
nice addition on oral tradition, thanks!
Yeah, the Cornutus chapter is interesting, though I agree that it just a theory, and probably a weak one; probably doesn't deserve a mention.
and yes, I think that the full text if small hymn is a good idea!
I also just found this book, Traditional Themes and the Homeric Hymns by Cora Angier Sowa; I had no time yet to skim it, but it can be useful.
Good source: I don't want to go too far into Sowa's analysis of the traditional themes in each poem, which is most of the book, but I've added a bit on her useful point that the stories are much older than the Hymns themselves. UndercoverClassicist T·C 11:58, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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