Talk:Hammer and sickle
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A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
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A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
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"Communist" is not a common noun here
@Vipz made a number of useful changes (I'm particularly grateful for the link to Communist symbolism). However, his decision to decapitalize (pun unavoidable) "Communist" is wrong, because it's not a common noun. It's the name of a political/social movement that follows specific doctrines espoused by Karl Marx.
Examples: hunter-gatherer societies (according to Marx) lack any sense of private property and are thus litle-c communist. They don't belong to a movement called "Communism" they just practice "communism". On the other hand, the Communist Party of China does belong to this movement and is thus big-C Communist.
By the same token, John Locke was a small-d democrat because he espoused democratic doctrines. But he didn't belong to any party called "Democratic" so he was not, like Joe Biden, a big-D Democrat. Isaac Rabinovitch (talk) 21:27, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
- @Isaac Rabinovitch: That's a lot to unpack here. First of all, "Communism" is typically capitalized when it has state/government/party annotations; I'm not convinced there is academic consensus to capitalize "communism" as theorized by Karl Marx. The note #3 in the lead section of article communism elaborates on this issue. Secondly, the hammer and sickle has a worldwide adoption among communist movements, the article is on both the big-C and small-c usage of it. Are anarchist communists actually "anarchist Communists" or "Anarchist Communists" because they read theory about their ideology? Is their usage of the symbol big-C? –Vipz (talk) 22:00, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
- You make some good points, and you're sort of winning this argument, mostly on the strength of the usage I'm seeing from googling "anarcho-communist." But it seems strange that we say that the H&S is a symbol of little-c communism when so many little-c communists have never heard of it. Indeed, Marx's supposed pre-agricultural communists would be extremely puzzled by the industrial-era symbolism.
- Oh well, I guess I'm leaning too hard on the idea that language should be logically consistent. Isaac Rabinovitch (talk) 00:00, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
hammer and cycle a universal symbol for communism?
This article doesn't seem to contain any contradicting information to the idea that the hammer and cycle is, and always has been, a universal symbol of communism. It never directly mentions any communist groups that doesn't use it and instead tries to present this *soviet* symbol as a universal symbol for communism. This may be a manifestation of bias and/or targeted propaganda. How widespread the symbol actually isis, how it spread, as well as current and historical contexts should be addressed within the article rather than being nothing but a list of reasons why it should be considered widespread without ever directly stating that conclusion. 2A02:3030:822:32A:1:0:7F0E:B90E (talk) 07:12, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
Pre-Soviet source dubious
I just removed a few paragraphs about pre-Soviet use of this symbol that was sourced only to this source[1] and some WP:OR. Needless to say, I don't believe this source is provably reliable nor enough to support the information it was cited in support of.
However, if someone can provide better sources about pre-Soviet use of this symbol I would like to see them.
- ^ "Chilean peso design, 1894". Retrieved 7 May 2018.
Loki (talk) 05:12, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
- English-language sources on the Internet seem scarce; I was able to find two about the hammer and sickle on Chilean peso: The Numismatic Scrapbook Magazine (April 1938), The Numismatist (1933). –Vipz (talk) 15:01, 1 October 2023 (UTC)