Talk:Gateway Church (Texas)

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Robert Morris (television pastor) was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 30 December 2011 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Gateway Church (Texas). The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.

The Wikimedia Foundation's Terms of Use require that editors disclose their "employer, client, and affiliation" with respect to any paid contribution; see WP:PAID. For advice about reviewing paid contributions, see WP:COIRESPONSE. Katherine at Gateway (talk · contribs) has been paid by Gateway Church. COI also disclosed on user page.

Katherine at Gateway (talk) 21:59, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Gateway Church is a very common name for a church as there seems to be a church by that name in every town in America. Most of these churches are unaffiliated. There are clearly more than one in Texas and the title should be 'Gateway Church Southlake' or something similar — Preceding unsigned comment added by Locustfist (talk • contribs) 20:22, 24 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the entry looks like a big ad for this church. I came across their website while looking for Messianic info, the lack of information on their website about teaching, doctrinal position, etc, was lacking. Hoping to find this on Wikipedia, I was greatly disappointed. As "messianic" sites can vary considerably from very Jewish to very Christian, the information I wanted was clearly missing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WachetAuf (talk • contribs) 10:58, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Have done some light tidying, but the details of the different venues and the pictures are mostly self-promotion. Propose to edit these down significantly, into something nearer tabular form, and to reduce details of staff to names and titles. Matruman (talk) 21:55, 22 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Did the above some time ago. However, I have now twice had to reinstate the controversy over tithing, though it is possible that initially it was deleted by accident. It's now sourced to an article by Morris himself, quoting his words; to avoid a deletion war could anyone wanting to delete it please explain why here. Matruman (talk) 09:33, 14 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The first line of the controversy section "Pastor Robert Morris has been accused of misusing scripture to say that people must tithe to their church if God" is uncited. Accused by whom? Where? The citation later in the sentence is the source of the Morris quote itself but does not establish the actual point of the sentence, which may be original research.

Also, is a theological disagreement such as this one with the senior pastor really noteworthy enough to create a section on the wiki for the church where he happens to serve? I'd have to see the citation for the "controversy" but suspect a few ministers disagreeing with each other is not really that noteworthy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.253.202.154 (talk) 20:35, 31 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest was declined.

Hi,

I am a paid editor of Gateway Church, and I would like to propose some changes to the Gateway Church (Texas) page. These changes are primarily to provide updates to outdated information, improve clarity, and fix some grammatical errors (not to remove information previously on the page). Please see below for the proposed changes. References have also been updated.

CHANGE 1: INTRO

Current Text: Gateway Church is a non-denominational, charismatic Christian multi-site megachurch based in Southlake, Texas, near Fort Worth. It has an estimated weekly attendance of 36,000 as of 2016 and is one of the largest churches in the United States. The church was founded by Robert Morris.

Proposed Text:

Gateway Church is a non-denominational, charismatic Christian multi-site megachurch based in Southlake, Texas. It is the largest congregation in the Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex with more than 100,000 people attending each weekend. The church was founded and is led by Senior Pastor Robert Morris.^[1]

Gateway Church’s motto is “We’re all about people.” Their vision is to see people saved, healed, set free, discipled, equipped, empowered, and serving. Their mission is to help each person at Gateway believe in Jesus, belong to family, become a follower, and build God’s kingdom.

CHANGE 2: HISTORY

Current Text:

On September 16, 1999, Pastor Robert Morris began to plan an evangelistic church in Southlake, Texas. Gateway Church's first service was held on Easter morning, April 23, 2000, at the Hilton Hotel in Grapevine. Approximately 180 people attended the service. The church grew, and moved to an old movie theater in Grapevine. In June 2003 the church moved into its first permanent building, a 600-seat, 64,000-square-foot (5,900 m2) facility on Southlake Blvd. In 2010 Gateway opened its current facility, a 64-acre (26 ha) property with a 4,000-seat sanctuary.

In 2017 Gateway Church confirmed 10–15% downsizing of their entire staff. The downsizing story gained national attention by other church media outlets.

Proposed Text: The changes below are just to add additional detail to the current history section. I would like to request that the text below replace the current text. Thank you!

 Not done for now: This request will take a long time to review. It must be more concise (that is, split into several parts.) Quetstar (talk) 04:51, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Quetstar: Thank you for responding to my edit request. Would it be more helpful for me to break each of the requested changes into individual requests? For example, could we start with a review of updates for the History section? This is the first time I have submitted an edit request. Thank you! Katherine at Gateway (talk) 22:42, 12 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that way it will be much more easier for editors to review. Quetstar (talk) 23:50, 12 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Quetstar: Thank you! I will submit my edit requests in smaller segments.Katherine at Gateway (talk) 15:16, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

On September 16, 1999, Robert Morris began to plan a Bible-based, evangelistic church in Southlake, Texas. Gateway Church’s first service was held on Easter morning, April 23, 2000, at the Hilton Hotel in Grapevine. Approximately 180 people attended the service. As the church grew, it moved to an old movie theater in Grapevine, Christ Our King Church in Southlake, and A World of Learning daycare in Grapevine. ^[2]

In June 2003, the church moved into its first permanent building in Southlake and has since expanded dramatically. In 2010, Gateway opened its current 206,000-square-foot location along State Highway 114 in Southlake.^[3]

From 2007 through 2020 Gateway opened eight additional campuses in the Metroplex, one campus out of state, and four prison campuses across Texas.

Gateway celebrated 15 years of ministry in 2015 with 43 Easter services across five campuses with 52,000 people in attendance.

In 2016 Gateway reported official giving records totaled over $500 million for the previous four years (2013–2016). For 2016 their annual report showed revenues of $127.2 million minus $123.9 million expenses, $3.5 million less than total revenue. Gateway also spent $9.9 million on land and other expenditures, which included the land for the Frisco Campus and Dallas Campus locations.

In 2017 Gateway Church confirmed a 10%–15% downsizing of their entire staff.^[4] The downsizing story gained national attention by other church media outlets.

During the COVID-19 global pandemic in 2020, Gateway continued to serve its congregation through the official launch of its Online Campus. Though it had been streaming services online since 2012, it innovated new online experiences for a larger at-home audience during building closures. Gateway pastors, staff, and volunteers personally responded to 72,000+ messages after launching its “Text PRAYER to 71010” campaign during the pandemic.

Gateway began 2021 rallying to help DFW residents who experienced shortages of food, water, and power during one of the worst snowstorms in Metroplex history. The church also announced plans to open a new Plano Campus, which will become its ninth DFW-area campus.

CHANGE 3: CAMPUSES

Current Text:

Southlake

In 2008, the church began work on a new main campus located along State Highway 114. The project included a 4,000-seat sanctuary. It opened on November 13, 2010. Mark Jobe, father of contemporary Christian singer Kari Jobe, serves as the Campus Pastor.

Prison ministries

In early 2019, Gateway Church announced it was starting a ministry inside the Coffield Unit, the largest prison in the Texas Department of Criminal Justice. It is open to minimum security inmates (and, with special permission, medium security inmates) but all inmates may obtain church materials. The church also ministers at the Estes Unit outside of Venus. Stephen Wilson, an ex-offender who earned his masters from Liberty University and has ministered in prisons previously, serves as the leader of both of these prison efforts. The church uses the term 'campus' in describing each prison outreach program.

Proposed Text: The changes below are just to update outdated information and add the latest details on new Gateway campuses. I would also like to propose a new section about church plants of Gateway Church. I would like to request that the text below replace the current text. Thank you!

The church currently conducts numerous weekend services at eight locations across the Dallas-Fort Worth area; one in Jackson Hole, Wyoming; and four within Texas prisons.

Southlake

The Southlake Campus is Gateway’s hub from which most of Gateway’s global ministry occurs. The first permanent location was completed in 2003, a 600-seat, 64,000-square-foot (5,900 m2) facility on Southlake Blvd. In 2008, the church began work on a new main campus located along State Highway 114. The project included a 64-acre (26 ha) building, a 4,000-seat sanctuary, a dedicated children’s ministry wing, and plenty of classrooms. It opened on November 13, 2010, and the previous building on Southlake Boulevard was repurposed for The King’s University in 2013. Nathan Watkins currently serves as the campus pastor.

NRH

In 2007, Gateway opened its first extension campus on nine acres in North Richland Hills (NRH). The weekend services mirror those at the Southlake Campus with live worship, personal ministry, and a video simulcast of the sermon from Southlake. Stokes Collins currently serves as the campus pastor.

Frisco

In April 2010, the overseers of Northstar Church in Frisco, Texas, asked Gateway to assist them in a transition process following the resignation of their senior pastor, Blaine Bartel.^[5] Gateway provided video messages and worship teams for the church before announcing that Northstar would become a Gateway extension campus on June 10, 2010.^[6] As with the other extension campuses, the weekend services are a mirror of those at the Southlake Campus with live worship and personal ministry, but with the message delivered via simulcast from the Southlake Campus. Kemtal Glasgow currently serves as the campus pastor.

North Fort Worth

In 2012, Gateway began holding services in the Fossil Ridge High School auditorium and then in July 2013 moved to a newly renovated campus building at the corner of Beach and Basswood. Derek Dunn currently serves as the campus pastor.

Grand Prairie

In March 2013, Shady Grove Church in Grand Prairie, Texas, joined the Gateway family as their fourth extension site and became the Grand Prairie Campus. Josh Briscoe currently serves as the campus pastor.

Dallas

In March 2016, Gateway opened their fifth extension campus in a church building off Hillcrest Road. Steve Thompson currently serves as the campus pastor.

Jackson Hole, Wyoming

In February 2019, Gateway Church announced a merger with River Crossing Church.^[7] Renamed Gateway’s Jackson Hole Campus, this is Gateway’s first campus outside of the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex and signifies Gateway’s potential to further expand in other parts of the country. Jim Hall currently serves as the campus pastor.

Justin

In September 2019, Gateway opened its Justin Campus to provide relief to the overflowing North Fort Worth Campus and meet the rapid growth occurring in and around the master-planned Alliance Texas development. The Justin Campus is currently meeting in a hotel until a permanent campus is ready. Sion Alford currently serves as the campus pastor.

Prosper

In October 2020, Gateway held its first weekend services at the newly launched Prosper Campus. Matt Lankenau currently serves as the campus pastor. The new Prosper location helps relieve some overflow from the Frisco Campus and meet the growth occurring north of Highway 380 in Prosper, McKinney, and Celina.

Plano

In 2021, Gateway announced it would be adding a new campus in East Plano. Jelani Lewis serves as the campus pastor.

Prison Campuses

In early 2019 Gateway Church announced that it opened a campus inside the Coffield Unit, the largest prison in the Texas Department of Criminal Justice.^[8] It is open to minimum security inmates (and with special permission, medium security inmates), but all inmates may obtain Gateway materials.^[9] A second campus was later opened at the Estes Unit outside of Venus, a third opened in the Lindsey Unit in Jacksboro, and in 2020, one was opened in the Choice Moore Transfer Facility in Bonham. Pastor Stephen Wilson,^[10] an ex-offender who earned his master’s degree from Liberty University and has ministered in prisons for many years, serves as campus pastor for all prison campuses.^[11]

Gateway Church plants share DNA and oversight with Gateway while having their own senior pastor and eldership.

Gateway Church | Scottsdale, Arizona

In late 2011, Gateway announced that former Young Adults Pastor Preston Morrison was planting a new Gateway Church in Scottsdale, Arizona.^[12] The church launched in August 2012. On May 13, 2018, Gateway Church Arizona launched an additional campus at 1137 E Warner Rd in Tempe, Arizona.

Embassy City Church | Irving, Texas

In April 2015, Gateway agreed to help Pastor Tim Ross plant Embassy City Church in Irving, Texas. Their first service was in September 2015.

Gateway Church | Houston, Texas

In 2019, Gateway Pastors Ethan and Elaine Fisher (son-in-law and daughter of Pastor Robert Morris) announced they were planting a Gateway Church in Houston, Texas. It launched in January 2020.

CHANGE 4: MINISTRIES

Current Text:

The King’s University at Gateway

The King’s University was founded in 1997 by Jack W. Hayford. in Van Nuys, California. In September 2012, The King’s University at Gateway was launched. The school offers full accredited undergraduate, master's, and a doctorate degree. When initially launched, the Southlake campus was an extension campus for the California-based school. On November 14, 2013, there was a special Dedication Service and Ribbon-Cutting Ceremony at The King’s University at Gateway Church making it the main campus for King’s University. The campus is located at the former Southlake church building on Southlake Boulevard. Dr. Jon Chasteen serves as the president.

Gateway Worship

Main article: Gateway Worship
Gateway Church utilizes its Worship Band to lead worship services and create original music that it sells on a commercial record label. Its Live album God Be Praised was released on November 9, 2010, with Japanese, Korean and Portuguese versions released in 2012.[citation needed] The live album, Walls, which was released on October 2, 2015, reached No. 1 on Billboard's Top Christian Albums Chart.

Proposed Text: The changes below are just to add more detail to the current copy and make minor formatting changes. I would like to request that the text below replace the current text. Thank you!

The King’s University at Gateway

The King’s University was founded in 1997 by Jack W. Hayford in Van Nuys, California. In September 2012, The King’s University at Gateway was launched. The school offers undergraduate, master’s, and doctorate degrees.^[13] When initially launched, the Southlake Campus was an extension campus for the California-based school. On November 14, 2013, there was a special dedication service and ribbon-cutting ceremony at The King’s University at Gateway making it the main campus. ^[14] The campus is located at the former Southlake church building on Southlake Blvd. Dr. Jon Chasteen serves as the president.^[15]

Gateway Worship

Main article: Gateway Worship

Gateway Worship has become an internationally acclaimed group with many songs becoming worship standards across the globe. Gateway's live album God Be Praised was released on November 9, 2010, and has since been released in Japanese, Korean and Portuguese.^[16] The live album Walls was released on October 2, 2015, and featured 15 new tracks from vocal talents, including Thomas Miller, Kari Jobe, Cody Carnes, Rita Springer, and Mark Harris. Walls became the group’s highest charting album, reaching number one on the Christian albums chart and Top 40 on the main albums chart. In 2017, Monuments was released under the new name GATEWAY. That same year, the group launched volume 1 of an unplugged series called Acoustic Sessions. In 2018 Greater Than, recorded live at the church's primary Southlake Campus, was another chart success for GATEWAY, who returned in 2020 with See You Move: Acoustic Session, Vol. 2.^[17]

Part of an edit requested by an editor with a conflict of interest has been implemented.

I would like to propose the changes below to the introduction of this article on Gateway Church (Texas). The proposed text is included below the current text. Please let me know if you have any questions. Thank you!

1. Update the number of people in attendance to the latest number. More than 100,000 people are now in attendance (in person and online).
2. Add Gateway Church mission and vision to give readers more information on the focus of the church.
3. Add additional links to other Wikipedia pages with more information.
4. Add an updated reference with more information on Pastor Robert Morris.

Current Text: Gateway Church is a non-denominational, charismatic Christian multi-site megachurch based in Southlake, Texas, near Fort Worth. It has an estimated weekly attendance of 36,000 as of 2016 and is one of the largest churches in the United States. The church was founded by Robert Morris.

Proposed Text:

Gateway Church is a non-denominational, charismatic Christian multi-site megachurch based in Southlake, Texas. It is the largest congregation in the Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex with more than 100,000 people attending each weekend. The church was founded and is led by Senior Pastor Robert Morris.^[18]

Gateway Church’s motto is “We’re all about people.” Their vision is to see people saved, healed, set free, discipled, equipped, empowered, and serving. Their mission is to help each person at Gateway believe in Jesus, belong to family, become a follower, and build God’s kingdom. Katherine at Gateway (talk) 23:26, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Partly done. I have added the reference to the senior pastor. Do you have a reference to a reliable source for the 100,000 figure? Have not added that yet. Finally, per Wikipedia:Avoid mission statements, I have not added the mission statement to the article. Best, Spencer^T•C 16:27, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Spencer: The only source we have right now for the number update is internal, so I understand that the update cannot be made at this time. Thank you for explaining why the mission statement cannot be added and for making the update to Pastor Robert's title. Katherine at Gateway (talk) 18:57, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest was declined.

Hi,

I would like to request a change to the list of campuses on the Gateway Church (Texas) Wikipedia page. Several new campuses have been added, so the current list is out of date. Thank you for reviewing this request.

Current Text:

Southlake

In 2008, the church began work on a new main campus located along State Highway 114. The project included a 4,000-seat sanctuary. It opened on November 13, 2010. Mark Jobe, father of contemporary Christian singer Kari Jobe, serves as the Campus Pastor.

Proposed Text:

Southlake

The Southlake Campus is Gateway’s hub from which most of Gateway’s global ministry occurs. The first permanent location was completed in 2003, a 600-seat, 64,000-square-foot (5,900 m2) facility on Southlake Blvd. In 2008, the church began work on a new main campus located along State Highway 114. The project included a 64-acre (26 ha) building, a 4,000-seat sanctuary, a dedicated children’s ministry wing, and plenty of classrooms. It opened on November 13, 2010, and the previous building on Southlake Boulevard was repurposed for The King’s University in 2013.

NRH

In 2007, Gateway opened its first extension campus on nine acres in North Richland Hills (NRH). The weekend services mirror those at the Southlake Campus with live worship, personal ministry, and a video simulcast of the sermon from Southlake.

Frisco

In April 2010, the overseers of Northstar Church in Frisco, Texas, asked Gateway to assist them in a transition process following the resignation of their senior pastor, Blaine Bartel.^[1] Gateway provided video messages and worship teams for the church before announcing that Northstar would become a Gateway extension campus on June 10, 2010.^[2] As with the other extension campuses, the weekend services are a mirror of those at the Southlake Campus with live worship and personal ministry, but with the message delivered via simulcast from the Southlake Campus.

North Fort Worth

In 2012, Gateway began holding services in the Fossil Ridge High School auditorium and then in July 2013 moved to a newly renovated campus building at the corner of Beach and Basswood.

Grand Prairie

In March 2013, Shady Grove Church in Grand Prairie, Texas, joined the Gateway family as their fourth extension site and became the Grand Prairie Campus.

Dallas

In March 2016, Gateway opened their fifth extension campus in a church building off Hillcrest Road.

Jackson Hole, Wyoming

In February 2019, Gateway Church announced a merger with River Crossing Church.^[3] Renamed Gateway’s Jackson Hole Campus, this is Gateway’s first campus outside of the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex and signifies Gateway’s potential to further expand in other parts of the country.

Justin

In September 2019, Gateway opened its Justin Campus to provide relief to the overflowing North Fort Worth Campus and meet the rapid growth occurring in and around the master-planned Alliance Texas development. The Justin Campus is currently meeting in a hotel until a permanent campus is ready.

Prosper

In October 2020, Gateway held its first weekend services at the newly launched Prosper Campus. Matt Lankenau currently serves as the campus pastor. The new Prosper location helps relieve some overflow from the Frisco Campus and meet the growth occurring north of Highway 380 in Prosper, McKinney, and Celina.

Plano

In 2021, Gateway announced it would be adding a new campus in East Plano.

Katherine at Gateway (talk) 00:22, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done. Most of the campuses are not sourced and each certainly does not need its own sub-heading. Do you have a single reference for the campuses with their pastors? Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:37, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This wiki article mostly seems like it was written by the church itself.

Can the church substantiate the claim of 100,000 in attendance? 132.147.157.65 (talk) 16:23, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The edits I made to the page to add information about the statutes of limitations in this case cite to the Texas Code. I recognize that Wikipedia protocol discourages over-reliance on primary sources, but in this case, the provisions are cited as a matter of fact, involving no legal interpretation (the gist of the added language is that, while the civil statute has likely passed, there is no limitations period for the criminal offenses at issue. I respectfully suggest that it is appropriate, in this circumstances, to rely on the primary source (the Texas Code) as the best evidence for what the law IS. I am not offering an interpretation of those statutes, or making an argument using those statutes, merely reporting the state of the law, which is unambiguous in this circumstance. I do hold a Texas law license, but I am NOT providing legal analysis on this case. I am not in possession of the necessary facts beyond the reporting in the Dallas Morning News, and provide the relevant legal citations for people to review and make up their own minds. Barrister018 (talk) 03:36, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

With Gateway in the headlines for the sexual abuse allegations surrounding Robert Morris, would it be advisable to make that a separate sub-section in the History section? WAVY 10 Fan (talk) 01:32, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Beware of WP:RECENTISM. There may be a flurry of news articles and then forgotten. Per WP:PROPORTION the allegations should not be given disproportionate emphasis (miniscule details, number of paragraphs) when viewed in everything that's been written about the church itself, merely because they are in the news today. --Animalparty! (talk) 01:48, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It promotes Word of Faith doctrines that have widely been dismissed as heresy by orthodox Christianity.^[1]

I cut out this sentence because the source doesn’t say any of this. The source doesn’t mention Gateway Church, doesn’t call Word of Faith a “heresy”, and doesn’t say this is a widely held view. WestRiding24 (talk) 22:36, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I see the material has been replaced by user:TanRabbitry, but the problems still exist. The added source still doesn’t mention Gateway, doesn’t call the theology a heresy, and doesn’t identify that description as being “widely” held. Please limit assertions to what is found in the sources. --WestRiding24 (talk) 23:20, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It speaks about the pastor of the church, Robert Morris. Additionally, saying something is a "false gospel," "false teaching," "blasphemous," et cetera, are all synonymous with heresy. It isn't necessary to fully explain Word of Faith on a page that on mentions it. For a more thorough view, see Word of Faith's own page. TanRabbitry (talk) 00:09, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Let’s stick with what the sources actually say. Thanks. --WestRiding24 (talk) 00:11, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would remind you that the Wikipedia standard for innocence until guilt is proved is high. You cannot make claims as you did just now. TanRabbitry (talk) 00:31, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Which edit are you talking about? WestRiding24 (talk) 00:36, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your allegation that he confessed. He may claim that she is wrong about key details that would make it not a crime. There is no evidence of that, but this is a case of all accusation. It is apparent that the church leadership understood a totally different event than he is actually being accused of. Your edits assuming guilt are vandalism and if you persist in that, you will likely be blocked. TanRabbitry (talk) 00:47, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I guess this about whether or not he confessed. Several sources say so, including the NBC article that says “ Robert Morris has resigned as senior pastor at Gateway Church in Southlake, Texas, three days after confessing to engaging in “sexual behavior” with a child over the course of a few years in the 1980s.”[1] No one is saying he has made a legal plea.WestRiding24 (talk) 00:46, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

TanRabbitry, are you saying that the NBC article is false? I haven’t seen him deny the abuse. Can you point to the WP policy that prevents us from reporting his confession? WestRiding24 (talk) 00:50, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:BLPCRIME&redirect=no TanRabbitry (talk) 00:52, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don’t see anything in that policy which prevents us from reporting a public confession. WestRiding24 (talk) 00:55, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"A living person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until convicted by a court of law." TanRabbitry (talk) 00:55, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As I said, he may claim that she is lying about her age, and/or any other details. Until he confesses or is convicted in a courtroom, no statements of guilt. Remember there is no WP:DEADLINE. TanRabbitry (talk) 00:58, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but we’re not saying he’s been found guilty in a court of law. Simply that he has publicly admitted to having sexual contact with a minor. If I recall correctly, you’ve been seeking to call him a heretic, so I’m not sure I understand your standards. WestRiding24 (talk) 01:01, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Stating as fact that he committed a crime is the same thing as saying he is guilty. His admission could be interpreted in many different ways (as demonstrated by the church leadership's understanding of his actions). My personal thought on his guilt or his theology is totally immaterial to this. In the heresy dispute I aim to preserve the accurate description that was already present in the article. Innocence until guilt is proved must be assumed for anyone, no matter their character or the nature of the accusation. Now, I reckon you have room for one more vandalism (even if it's unintentional) before you're punished in some way. I highly encourage you to refrain from it. Thank you, TanRabbitry (talk) 01:15, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The text I put in simply summarizes the article. Many sources use the word “confess”. What do you believe he confessed to? WestRiding24 (talk) 01:18, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Other places have different standards. You have been given Wikipedia's. My thoughts on his guilt aren't relevant. However, he has not confirmed exactly what has been alleged. His "confession" leaves room for denying much of what his accuser has stated; her age, length of the supposed abuse, what it actually entailed, et cetera. It is already known that his claims about her father's "blessing" for him to return to ministry have been contradicted by her. There are many other details that may be in dispute. Wait until more information is known. It may be better for you to wait to wade into articles like this after you have had some more experience editing. You do seem to have some advanced knowledge of Wikipedia already. Why not get some more practice with simpler and non-controversial articles? Thank you, TanRabbitry (talk) 01:35, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I rewrote the sentence to reflect the sources. There probably should be a section on the church’s theology. --WestRiding24 (talk) 23:33, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, but see my comment below on finding support for Gateway Church's theology being "Word of Faith" doctrine. I could not find any reasonably neutral or reliable source that makes that assertion. Nowa (talk) 17:36, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Berean Research appears to be a self-published source. Its owner is Amy Spreeman. Is she a recognized expert? Unless we can find evidence of the site’s reliability it shouldn’t be used as a source, per WP:SPS. WestRiding24 (talk) 01:47, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I concur that Berean Research appears to be a self published blog with a clear agenda and should not be used as RS to characterize the theology of Gateway Church (i.e., that it subscribes to a "Word of Faith" doctrine). I did a diligent search and could not find any reasonably neutral source that characterized it this way. Therefore, unless there is an objection, I think this characterization should be removed, especially since it is in the lede. Nowa (talk) 17:32, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure of the former, but the latter is the story that launched the investigation and led to his resignation, so I would say at least for this page, it is apt to remain. As to the other point, you would be hard pressed to find a "neutral" source on specific aspects of theology. Nearly everything written on the subject is from someone advocating their thesis, whatever it may be. That is why lines about theological critique are normally qualified with "Pastor so-and-so has condemned-," "the Catholic Church believes-," "most Protestants accept-," "the vast majority of orthodoxy rejects,-" et cetera. There aren't going to be people who write about theology without an opinion. Thank you,

TanRabbitry (talk) 18:51, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I was just referring to Berean Research for now. I agree that if we do cite a source for the doctrine of the church we should attribute the opinion with a mention of their authority to speak on the subject.

I don’t think that Berean Research, however, is adequate. It appears to be a self published blog by a person who has no particular authority or notability. It also doesn’t have anything specific about the pastor or the church. The pastor’s name is simply included in a long list of possible examples. Nowa (talk) 19:43, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I’ve deleted the sentence. The sources were poor. Also, it’s inappropriate to interject a general criticism of a theology into an article about a particular church, especially if it isn’t a leading representative. We wouldn’t say that some Protestants think Catholicism is heretical in an article about a cathedral, for example. Further, the sources don’t mention the church itself, only its former pastor. If we have better sources a section on their beliefs would be appropriate. WestRiding24 (talk) 01:54, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Nowa

You made a good point. A better source would be a sermon, book or article on heretical teachings. I know Morris has been mentioned in both John MacArthur and Justin Peters sermons. Those would be ideal to source opinion from, since both are prominent critics of the Word Faith movement and are listed as so on the Word of Faith page. TanRabbitry (talk) 05:15, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I also agree that it is poorly sourced and is UNDUE as well for the lead. We can't make a claim like that in Wikivoice when the source is subpar. This about page on Amy Spreeman does not indicate she is an authority on the subject, which makes it wildly UNDUE to state this in the lead, and furthermore, it is UNDUE to use her blogs/websites to state the church is a proponent of anything. And since three editors have now disputed the content being included in the lead - The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content. Isaidnoway (talk) 08:24, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I did a Google search on Gateway Church and Word of Faith and didn't find anything usable. A sermon is probably a form of self published source. My understanding is that 3rd party SPSs can never be used about an individual, but one from an expert could’ve be used for the church itself. WestRiding24 (talk) 02:49, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Same here, I couldn't find anything usable either, and quite frankly, this discussion is moot anyway, as the SPS is unreliable; doesn't even mention Gateway Church, and so what if the SPS mentions Morris, he resigned and doesn't even work there anymore. Isaidnoway (talk) 06:10, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The original sentence was unsourced which is why I added one. I added one, but looking back, I agree that is a poor source. However, I think it is important to cover and I believe we should use an expert opinion from, for example a sermon, book or article. Once it is established what is taught at the church, then we can decide how to frame it. TanRabbitry (talk) 19:30, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

These also look like blogs:

Roys, Julie; Stogsdill, Sheila (18 June 2024). "Robert Morris Resigns as Overseer at Alabama Megachurch, Following Sex Abuse Allegations". The Roys Report. Retrieved 18 June 2024.

"I Was 12 Years Old and Wearing My Pink Pajamas When Robert Morris, Now of Gateway Church, Began to Molest Me. The Alleged Abuse Lasted for 4 1/2 Years". The Wartburg Watch. The Wartburg Watch. June 14, 2024. Retrieved 15 June 2024.