Talk:Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse/Archive 2

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Archive 1

Archive 2

Does anyone else agree that the Edward Bishop Elliott sections amount to undue emphasis on a particular, perhaps fringe, interpretation? They take up a fair amount of volume in the article and might be better moved or merged to a separate page. — jmcgnh^{(talk) (contribs)} 23:32, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Elliott's interpretation should be given at most a short paragraph that spells out its theological, not historical, nature. It is based on events that occurred decades and centuries after the Book of Revelation was written. This mode of reading the Bible as referring to future events (relative to when it was written) is theological. This line – seeing biblical events as having occurred after the author wrote but before our current day – is sometimes called the "historical" theological reading, as opposed to the "preterist" reading, in which the author, of Revelation in this case, was writing about events that had already happened in his day. (The "futurist" mode of reading used by some Evangelicals today is different because it sees Revelation as about events that still haven't happened. That mode of reading fed into the Waco seige, for example.) The preterist mode of reading should dominate in a non-theological text like Wikipedia, and other modes of reading should be flagged as such. — sjengler^{(talk) (contribs)} 23:32, 8 January 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sjengler (talk • contribs)

The main weapon of the Roman legions was the gladius, a type of short sword, not the bow, so connecting the rise and fall of the Roman Empire to the prophecy is at best weak. Not 100% sure of the timing but I think Rome was at its height when the prophecy was made, so there is no room for Conquest to show up, never mind Conquest armed with a bow. Plenty of wars, famines and plagues though. The amount of space for this position does seems excessive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.174.133.89 (talk) 17:50, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

There seems to be a person who I think is edit warring and following my every edit and reverting everything I change.

Futurism is a Christian Eschatological position and I think futurism should replace the word 'prophecy' in that heading because Historicists also promote future prophecy. Nashhinton (talk) 07:09, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

There seems to be a person who I think is edit warring and following my every edit and reverting everything I change. Really? Here? You think it's okay to bring this up here? Well, it's not. This is not the forum for that. Edit warring is to be reported here; other misconduct is reported here. Please stick to the content at hand on article talk pages. El_C 07:15, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Please leave me alone. I do not want to talk to you. Nashhinton (talk) 07:17, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, I am the admin you get. El_C 07:20, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

All you had to do was tell me you can spy on me without leaving me to think you are gangstalking Nashhinton (talk) 09:05, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

 The bible neglects naming the first rider so should we.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by AaronottoJennings (talk • contribs) 04:24, 29 July 2016 (UTC)  further more when is it stated in the text that the lamb (who unseals the seal, is also the rider on the white horse?

There are two different white horses in Revelations and two riders. One conquers using the bow, while the other used the sword in his mouth. This can be taking as he uses "cutting remarks" or criticism instead of an actual weapon. The return of Christ can also mean the return of Christianity through conversion, instead of the return of a physical Christ. As to where Christianity will return, that is obviously back to the only place it has been practically wiped out, aka Muslim lands which were previously Christian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.174.128.28 (talk) 16:39, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

I Think that the saying they were given the power of over fourth of the earth means that they were given the power of the water

-Ty S. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.240.160.177 (talk) 20:57, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Sorry for the 2-year delay in noticing this entry--This is not a discussion page. And whether you are correct or not, Wikipedia requires no original research when editing articles. David Spector (talk) 14:03, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

The pale horse, greenish in color, should be noted that this is the color of Islam. My source is John Hagee Ministries. signed by Gloria Lewis — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.243.179.58 (talk) 12:29, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

The color of Islam is also red as in The Red Crescent. It is also the color of blood and therefore good symbolism for a people that love war. Muslims do love their jihads!71.174.128.28 (talk) 16:56, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

There have been a number of authors comparing events in the Middle Ages to The prophecy. They mistakenly tend to concentrate on events in Europe when the prophecy refers to "the earth", so events outside of Europe would have a bearing. These events are as follows

1) The Mongol Conquests - the largest empire that has ever existed was the Mongol Empire and was created in short time by horse nomads whose main weapon was the bow - an excellent fit for the Conqueror

2) Turkish destruction of the Byzantine Empire by the Turks in wars that spanned hundreds of years. They are Muslims and wage jihad wars as a matter of religious duty. Muslims and their endless jihads are a perfect fit for the people that would take peace from the earth.

3) Famine from crop failures due to the cooling weather of the Little Ice Age

4) The Black Plague - a disease spread by rats which live underground and are literally beasts "of the earth".

In conjunction these 4 events caused a worldwide population drop on the order of 25% as required by the prophecy. This has been the ONLY worldwide population drop of that magnitude KNOWN to have occurred since the time of Christ. There may also have been a worldwide population drop around the time of the fall of the Roman Empire as another Little Ice Age hit at that point as well, but not enough evidence exists to prove it.

The Bible statement in Revelations 6:8 "And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill by sword, by famine, and by plague and by the beasts of the earth" is an 100% accurate description of what happened WORLDWIDE during the Middle Ages.

The article should reflect this fact to the extent allowed by wiki policies! You show some dufus interpretation about how the prophecy was about events in the first century Roman Empire which is PLAINLY STUPID as the prophecy happened AFTER those events. Prophecies are about the FUTURE and not about the PAST! it's kinda the definition!71.174.129.20 (talk) 05:22, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Who asks for a citation on this

According to the main modern interpretation, this prophecy describes a period of time when a quarter of the population of the earth would be killed by a combination of wars, famine and disease.[according to whom?]

when the language itself states

"They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by the sword (war), famine, and plague and by the wild beasts of the earth."

I think wikipedia needs to limit someones role in the organization!71.174.128.28 (talk) 02:35, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

I think someone needs to learn how Wikipedia works.

The article on Sky has citations for the fact that it's blue.

That's just your opinion that that's the plainest reading of the text, which is not what we use. Ian.thomson (talk) 02:46, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

have you ever heard of the phrase "The plain meaning of the law is the law"? I'm pretty sure that the plain meaning of 'The Sky is Blue" can be confirmed any sunny day in the non cloudy 90% of the world. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.174.128.28 (talk) 15:37, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

Have you heard the phrase WP:No original research? It's one of the cornerstones of this site, and why our article on sky has citations for the fact that it's blue. Ian.thomson (talk) 10:00, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

Here! It took me a whole minute to find it

https://www.ancient-origins.net/unexplained-phenomena/apocalypse-0012794

The most straightforward and widely agreed interpretation of this chapter is the description of a period in history when a large part of earth’s population would perish through a combination of wars, diseases, and hunger.

Learn to use a search engine!

I spent another minute and look what I found

https://www.vision.org/the-four-horsemen-of-the-apocalypse-part-2-food-shortages-and-pandemic-disease-4346

“And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth” (Revelation 6:8b). In combination the riders of the four horses bring death to 25 percent of the world’s population.

Again learn to use a search engine!— Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.174.128.28 (talk • contribs)

I know how to use a search engine. It's your job to present sources for your claims, not mine. Learn what a reliable source is before trying again. Ian.thomson (talk) 10:00, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

Usually sane people do not ask for references on such things as war involves killing, the sky is blue and that normal people have 10 fingers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.174.127.186 (talk) 14:05, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

Have taken the liberty to excising this passage. It was the first thing the IP was edit-warring over, and seems to have been perhaps overlooked when they moved on to the other nonsense? Not seeing the utility of a wordy citation to discionary.com that blows the intro up 2x its size. If we do really need this it could be shortened considerably. Zaathras (talk) 14:02, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

.When gardening you get rid of the weeds instead of the tomatoes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.174.127.186 (talk) 14:07, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

an intro is supposed to be be for the uninformed therefore words like exegetical don't belong there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.174.127.186 (talk) 14:47, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps the Simple English Wikipedia would be more to your liking? Zaathras (talk) 21:42, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

one in 10,000 MIGHT know what that word means, but i would not bet that way! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.174.127.186 (talk) 21:51, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

Gosh, if only people viewing this website had access to some vast computer network containing the majority of the world's information, including dictionaries and encyclopedias...

I've linked "exegetical" to the article on Exegesis.

Maybe instead of telling us to remove something because you don't know what it is, you could ask us to link to an article on it. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:12, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

I can assure you that the 9,999 that don't know that word, don't WANT to know that word. Have fun wasting your time.

and yes I LIKE "SIMPLE" because it is more understandable.71.174.127.186 (talk) 20:31, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

This section is simply PATHETIC. There is only one reference to disease in the section and it is way inside when it should be the very first thing.

The first and second horseman represent 2 types of wars, 1:conquest and 2:war for the simple love of war. The third represents famine, and the fourth disease spread by beasts of the earth. Again PATHETIC that something this obvious is not included in the description.

The way it is written the fourth horseman is a combo of "pestilence and the beasts of the earth" - aka a disease spread by beasts with a strong connection to the earth. say burrowing animals. Think of the combo of bubonic plague and rats. Another well known example of a disease spread by an "animal" is malaria and mosquitoes.

Authority was given to them (the four horseman) over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword ( war) and with famine (famine) >>>and<<< with pestilence >>>and<<< by the wild beasts of the earth.

Notice the first "and" is followed by a second. In English if the item following an "and" is a combo. you get "and this AND that", with THIS AND THAT being a combo. This is the way English is USED. 71.174.127.186 (talk) 21:04, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Original

The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse are described in the last book of the New Testament of the Bible, the Book of Revelation by John of Patmos, at 6:1–8, according to the main exegetical stream since the Reformation. The chapter tells of a book or scroll in God's right hand that is sealed with seven seals. The Lamb of God opens the first four of the seven seals, which summons four beings that ride out on white, red, black, and pale horses. Before the Reformation it was generally thought that there was only one Horseman, riding successively these four horses.

Though theologians and popular culture differ on the first Horseman, the four riders are often seen as symbolizing Conquest[1] or Pestilence (and less frequently, the Christ or the Antichrist), War,[2] Famine,[3] and Death.[4] The Christian apocalyptic vision is that the Four Horsemen are to set a divine apocalypse upon the world as harbingers of the Last Judgment.[1][5] That the number of horsemen are four is important: four is the number associated with creation or the earth in the Book of Revelation. On the significance of fours in Revelation, see Biblical numerology.[6]

Proposed revision

The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse are described in the last book of the New Testament of the Bible, the Book of Revelation by John of Patmos, at 6:1–8, which is thought to have been written around 96 AD with a small minority proposing that it was written around 68 AD[1].

According to the main modern interpretation, this prophecy describes a period of time when a quarter of the population of the earth would be killed by a combination of wars, famine and disease.[2] The prophecy describes the causes as a conquering people whose weapon was the bow ("I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest"), a people engaged in constant war ("Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword"), as high food prices leading to famine ("before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, 'A quart of wheat for a day's wages, and three quarts of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!'") and disease[2] ("I looked and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him."). These four are then summed up as follows: "They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by the sword (war), famine, and plague and by the wild beasts of the earth."

Compare and tell which is a better version for someone willing to spend 1 minute for information and only willing to read the intro. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.174.127.186 (talk) 14:44, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

The existing version is preferable...straightforward, concise, well-written. Yours is a bland wall of text, bloated with quotations and excessive detail. Zaathras (talk) 21:40, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

You need to look up well-written. the original looks like it was made by a gang into hack and paste. That's below cut and paste.I can say more about the other words you used but I will refrain.71.174.127.186 (talk)

I would like that someone would give a reference for "Before the Reformation it was generally thought that there was only one Horseman, riding successively these four horses." I don't know where this surprising assertion came from. There's a very famous 1498 woodcut from Dürer (check up the year and the Reformation chronology) where you can see four horsemen, simultaneously as a dramatic representation because he was a great artist. Before that you would usually find them to be represented separately, but that doesn't mean they weren't considered different horsemen. I mean, this is completely wrong and kind of nuts but it's presented as a fact nevertheless. I'd add a "citation needed", as apparently all this relies on just a 2019 self-published book I don't have access to, but the article is locked.83.34.72.98 (talk) 21:20, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Under the Pale Horse section, there is this unsourced claim:

"Some christians believed that the “wild beasts” refers to the Nephilim hybrids (reptilians, bigfoots, insectoids, dogmen, etc) destined to be loosed from their underground habitat to kill a third of humanity."

This seems to be a fringe belief from an earlier editor. Should this sentence be deleted? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.204.46.59 (talk) 21:00, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

I just deleted this: "Other interpretations relying on comparative religious research ascribe the first Horseman as guiding for "the right path".In Mahabharata Lord Krishna was a charioteer to Arjuna by riding on white horses, while Arjuna himself was an archer.^[1]" Firstly, ramarajyam.org is no longer online and cannot serve as reference. But more importantly for consideration of future misappropriations: the Four Horsemen is clearly a Christian legend/myth, it's not appropriate to be citing the Mahabharata here, certainly not including it under the "Christological interpretation" sub-heading. I suspect some cult tried to inappropriately combine apocalyptic ideas from both Hindu and Christian traditions. Don't do that! Tumacama (talk) 23:21, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

There is an archived version of that website (archived in 2018) here. It doesn't look even remotely like an RS to me, I would strongly support the removal of any content supported only by that site. GirthSummit _(blether) 09:50, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Emmet Fox interpets the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse to be among the most important of the great Bible symbols because they give the key to the nature of man as we know him.

The Pale Horse represents the physcal body. "And his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed after him."One who values only the physical body and material things can only be met with Death at the end of his ride as the body shall perish. Where there is no belief in spiritual existence the body's death can only result Hell( note that Hell may also be a symbol of the lack of spiritual existence).

The Red Horse symbolizes man's emotional nature. " And there went out another horse that was red; and power was given to him that sat upon thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword." If a human allows his emotional nature to control him then he willl undoubtedly face a difficult time in his life journey. The person who has an inability to control an emotion, such as anger for example will sow resentment and create obstacles throughout their life until they learn to control that anger emotion. The human that allows the Red Horse to control his life will have an unhappy existence. The large sword is a symbol for immense destruction that the rider of the Red Horse can create if they are not in control of their emotion.

The Black Horse symbolizes man's intellect."And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny.", The balance, being a scale to measure, is a sybol of lack or famine. There is not enough to go around so things have to be measured and rationed. Riding the Black Horse symbolizes the human allowing the intellect to dominate the life experience while not allowing room for the spiritual being to grow and develop. The rider that allows the Black Horse of intellect to dominate their life and doea not cultivate their spiritual being will be met with a spiritual famine at the end of the ride.

The White Horse symbolizes man's spiritual nature. " And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer." The rider of the White Horse has acheived the awareness of God in their life. The bow and arrow is an acient symbol of the spoken word. The bow represents prayer and the rider conquers by use of the spoken word and prayer.The rider of the White Horse wears a crown the symbol of victory. The rider that rides the White Horse and develops an awareness and relationship with God will gain the crown of a fufilled life as that rider attains everlasting life within the relationship with God. 173.14.181.101 (talk) 01:16, 30 November 2011 (UTC) Source Alter Your Life by Emmet Fox

I have altered your post only to keep it from breaking the page. I'll look at adding it at some point. Ian.thomson (talk) 13:17, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

That's a good explanation, which gave me thinking.. 188.230.174.229 (talk) 13:13, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Another kind of interpretation

White Horse: America (white house), won the first and second world war

Red Horse: Soviet Union (red square), take peace from earth

Black Horse: trading with scales in his hand represent global trading, black represent mixing of all color all nation, do not damage the oil and the wine represent environment protection, these two topics dominate the world trend after fall down of Soviet Union

Pale Horse: represent death, Pandemic happened, accelerate the process of deglobalization, Tariff barriers rebuilded, food price rise up, famine happens, more wars happen — Preceding unsigned comment added by 謝立人 (talk • contribs) 10:53, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

The word θανάτῳ is not a “variation” of the word Θάνατος; it’s the dative singular of Θάνατος. The dative is required here because θανάτῳ follows ἐν; its meaning is still Θάνατος. θανάτῳ in Rev 6:8 is translated in many ways: in the Vulgate as “morte” (ablative of mors, death, the name of the rider)^[1]; in the KJV as “pestilence”^[2]; in the NABRE as “plague”^[3]; in the Vatican working draft Chinese as 瘟疫, wēnyì, plague (can’t give you the link to that one, sorry). In other places in the Bible, the word θανάτῳ is translated as “death” (in the KJV in Mt 15:4, Jn 12:33 inter alia)^[4]. One who apparently didn’t study Greek can’t really justify preferring to read θανάτῳ as “plague” by casual reference to a single interlinear source, am I right? I didn’t edit the article, because whoever wrote that sentence should have an opportunity to explain why they thought that sentence should stand on its own.

2600:6C44:7C80:431C:F981:F818:7AF7:73DE (talk) 02:24, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Preterist interpretation

Article: Some modern scholars interpret Revelation from a preterist point of view, arguing that its prophecy and imagery apply only to the events of the first century of Christian history.[24]

Me: The Book of Revelations was written well after Christs death, around 100 AD by most sources, and can not be a "prophecy" of the first century after the birth of Christ as it was written either at the END of that first century or AFTER that first century.

Some people seem to have had brain farts!!!!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.174.128.28 (talk) 16:19, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

Can anyone make sense of these rambling, insulting text walls? Is there anything useful in this and other sections where Biblical blogs are cited as sources, "Muslims do love their jihads!" statements, etc? Zaathras (talk) 22:37, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

@Zaathras: No, please remove any off-topic comments (including mine) which are not helpful for improvement of the article. I semi-protected this talk page and will take further action if needed later. Johnuniq (talk) 04:18, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

Honestly, I'd've just blocked the IP instead of locking the page. It's dynamic but it seems stable enough at the moment. Ian.thomson (talk) 10:01, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

Still STUPID!!!!

A prophecy is supposed to be a vision of the future. This prophecy was revealed around 100 AD, making the first century AD BEFORE the time of the prophecy. According to the article it is about a time BEFORE the time of the "revelation". Thus STUPID as written. A modern day equivalent would be to see a vision of Germany ruled by a power hungry dictator conquering all of Europe. Sounds suspiciously like WW2 and thus NOT A PROPHECY!!! I hope my point in conveyed!71.174.129.20 (talk) 04:09, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Historians have long recognized that many so called prophecies in the bible were written after the event. That so called prophecies written before the event are passeges that vaguely describe an event that are reinterpreted after another event to claim the second event was prophsied. Some events, or actions, are written in the bible as having been taken to be "in fulfilment of prophesy". That is the meaning of Preterist interpretation. Historians recognize that persecuted early jewish/christian writers wrote in vague terms, as in modern terms "dog whistle" is used, to document their dissatisfaction with, opposition to, and rebellious plans for, the persecution. Writing in vague, "dog whistle" terms so the writings could be distributed, and when they fall into the hands of hostile, persecuting outsiders they wouldn't understand what the writers were writing about. A form of code for military, and documentational purpose. These writings have subsequently been included in the canonical bible as actual prophesies. 98.164.73.58 (talk) 14:53, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Could someone give the Hebrew word Ezekiel used for "wild beasts" and explain it precisely? Does "wild beasts" include insects (locusts, mosquitoes, killer bees, killer hornets) or does the word mean something more restricted? WordwizardW (talk) 02:30, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Vonteous has changed the link to Christian Mythology to point at Christian Religion (which redirects to Christianity) several times after being reverted. I invite them to set out there reasoning here. Best GirthSummit _(blether) 15:55, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

I agree with keeping it to "mythology". Calling the historic interpretative developments of the "Four Horsemen" is clearly "mythological" and not in any way demeaning of the Christian Religion, because clearly anything other than the specific reference to the exact lines of of the Revelations scripture is mythological. Such bullies as Vonteous have discouraged me from making any edits to any articles. Tumacama (talk) 23:21, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

I also think it should link to Christian Mythology, but "Christian Scriptures" seems good enough as well. BlueBanana (talk) 12:29, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

"Such bullies as Vonteous have discouraged me" Have you had personal interactions with this editor? Dimadick (talk) 10:41, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

The main infobox on the article was recently changed to Christianity, what are your opinions on this? Personally I think Christian Eschatology was better as it is more specific and more accurately fits the subject, whereas Christianity seems a bit too broad. However, on the other hand there is a separate infobox for Eschatology in the Interpretations section of the article. BlueBanana (talk) 14:52, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

What should we do about the parts where corn is mentioned? I think the concerns of 45.48.101.140 regarding that corn was only introduced to Europe in the 15th century are valid. It seems stupid that we should keep obvious misinformation in the article just because of WP:NOR. BlueBanana (talk) 00:53, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Corn does not mean maize.In British English, "corn" can mean any cereal grain, such as barley, oats, or wheat. Dimadick (talk) 18:05, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Can Christian editors take a step back on this. People have co-opted Zechariah and Ezekiel to reinforce revelation. It probably is the case that John had in mind these texts but it is wrong to try to align them all to support Christian eschatology. Deal with them separately 203.171.51.94 (talk) 04:07, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

I have simply clipped Zechariah and Ezekiel from the lead. There are no "four horsemen" in either. Srnec (talk) 19:43, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

"White-faced Pestilences live there, as well as Hunger and Death and War." Aeneid, Book 6, written 150 years before Revelation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:8C0:601:4CA0:288E:4C2B:E913:230F (talk) 01:45, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

4 Horsemen symbol for 4 major super powers? 122.59.22.161 (talk) 22:28, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Everything is possible, but we don't state in our articles just because it is merely possible. See also WP:FORUM. tgeorgescu (talk) 04:53, 6 June 2023 (UTC)