Talk:Circassian genocide

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Circassian genocide article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3Auto-archiving period: 30 days

This  level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Caucasia (inactive) This article is within the scope of WikiProject Caucasia, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.CaucasiaWikipedia:WikiProject CaucasiaTemplate:WikiProject CaucasiaCaucasia articles Abkhazia High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Abkhazia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Abkhazia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AbkhaziaWikipedia:WikiProject AbkhaziaTemplate:WikiProject AbkhaziaAbkhazia articles High This article has been rated as High-importance on the importance scale. Turkey Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Turkey, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Turkey and related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.TurkeyWikipedia:WikiProject TurkeyTemplate:WikiProject TurkeyTurkey articles Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Iran Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Iran, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles related to Iran on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please join the project where you can contribute to the discussions and help with our open tasks.IranWikipedia:WikiProject IranTemplate:WikiProject IranIran articles Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Russia: History / Politics and law High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a WikiProject dedicated to coverage of Russia on Wikipedia. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia articles High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by the history of Russia task force. This article is supported by the politics and law of Russia task force. Human rights Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Human rights, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Human rights on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Human rightsWikipedia:WikiProject Human rightsTemplate:WikiProject Human rightsHuman rights articles Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Philosophy: Ethics Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Philosophy, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of content related to philosophy on Wikipedia. If you would like to support the project, please visit the project page, where you can get more details on how you can help, and where you can join the general discussion about philosophy content on Wikipedia.PhilosophyWikipedia:WikiProject PhilosophyTemplate:WikiProject PhilosophyPhilosophy articles Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Associated task forces: /  Ethics Crime and Criminal Biography High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related articles High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Death High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Death on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath articles High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Ethnic groups Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ethnic groups, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles relating to ethnic groups, nationalities, and other cultural identities on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Ethnic groupsWikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groupsTemplate:WikiProject Ethnic groupsEthnic groups articles Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. WikiProject Ethnic groups open tasks: Here are some open WikiProject Ethnic groups tasks: Meta-tasks: Place the {{Ethnic groups}} template on the talk page of articles within the scope of this project. Resolve the disparity in importance rankings among different ethnic groups Articles about ethnic groups that currently have issues needing resolution: Category:Unassessed Ethnic groups articles Category:Ethnic groups articles needing merge action Category:Ethnic groups articles needing infoboxes Category:Ethnic groups articles needing reassessment Category:Ethnic groups articles needing attention Iyer Peruvian people Start an article: Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groups/Article requests Feel free to edit this list or discuss these tasks. Discrimination Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Discrimination, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Discrimination on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DiscriminationWikipedia:WikiProject DiscriminationTemplate:WikiProject DiscriminationDiscrimination articles Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the importance scale.

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to Eastern Europe or the Balkans, which has been designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

Section sizes Section size for Circassian genocide (41 sections) Section name Byte count Section total (Top) 21,793 21,793 Background 3,804 3,804 Prelude: Russo-Circassian War 36 26,129 Start of conflicts with Circassia 2,990 2,990 Methods of massacre 23,103 23,103 Genocide and ethnic cleansing: 1860s 21,848 32,766 Conditions during the deportation process 6,866 6,866 Transport vessels 4,052 4,052 Casualties and demographic changes 12,150 13,087 Repopulation of affected lands 937 937 International reactions 30 3,033 Ottoman Empire 1,867 1,867 United Kingdom 828 1,136 Scotland 308 308 Advocacy and relief efforts 3,939 3,939 Resettlement 4,359 15,825 Areas settled by Circassian exiles 1,114 11,466 Balkans 6,721 6,721 Anatolia and Iraq 858 858 Levant 2,773 2,773 Proposed return 1,792 1,792 Consequences 2,874 7,342 Ethnic tensions in the Ottoman Empire 4,468 4,468 Numbers of refugees 3,491 3,491 Genocide classification 2,352 19,778 Political positions 29 10,485 Russia 453 1,007 Boris Yeltsin 554 554 Circassian Organizations 1,708 1,708 Georgia 2,587 2,587 Turkey 2,233 2,233 Appeals to world governments by Circassians 2,921 2,921 Scholarly viewpoints 6,941 6,941 Modern movement for the rights and freedoms of Circassians 4,382 12,970 Contemporary Struggle for Circassian Language and Culture 2,679 2,679 Persecution of Circassian activists 5,909 5,909 Commemoration 554 554 See also 305 305 Notes 26 26 References 30 5,311 Bibliography 5,281 5,281 Total 171,945 171,945

Re [1] this edit.

The edit is clearly trying to shift the blame for this even from the Russian empire to the Ottomans. This is NOT the mainstream view, to say the least. This is being done on the basis of a source which is claimed to be “Berger, 2015”. It’s actually something from 1880. By “Adolf Petrovich Berger” who lived between 1826-1888 [2]. Berger was obviously Russian writing to justify Russian imperial policy. This is kind of like if the secretary to King Leopold of Belgium was being used as a source to excuse the atrocities in the Belgian Congo. Regardless of the aptness of that analogy we really shouldn’t be using a 19th century source, especially if we’re using it for fringe non mainstream claims.

And on top of that even this obviously biased 19th century source doesn’t even claim that Ottomans were responsible for the genocide (it kind of can’t, since it’s busy denying that a genocide took place at all). All it says is that Russia fought a war with Ottoman Turkey.

The edit summary also just doesn’t make sense.

This is a bad edit and it’s misinformation which is based on a bad source and doesn’t even manage to accurately reflect that source. Please self revert. Volunteer Marek 17:53, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1: I have specified the exact date of the source, the date in the short link refers specifically to the modern edition.
2: You most likely have not studied the source, the war between the Turks and Russia does not appear anywhere in the source.
3: The source does not justify or shift the blame for the genocide, the source refers exclusively to the time of migration of Circassians to Turkey, the source is trying to figure out who is responsible for the resettlement of Circassians to Turkey, again confirms that you have not studied the source. ) Dushnilkin (talk) 20:51, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The source is from 1880. 2012 or whatever is just the re-publication date. The guy died in 1888.

I have indeed read the source. The source - as unreliable as it is - does not say that Ottoman Turkey was a perpetrator of this genocide as you’re trying to add to the article. Volunteer Marek 23:08, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I wrote that the date in the short link refers specifically to the specified publication, and not to the work as a whole.

The source claims that the Circassians began to move because of provocations from the Ottoman Empire, which subsequently led to casualties. I can agree that it is not necessary to specify Osman in the infbox, but there must be a mention in the article. Dushnilkin (talk) 08:20, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your 1880 Russian source also claims of the expulsions that "The most brilliant exploits of our generals and the amazing heroism and selflessness of the troops left nothing but glorious pages in history." What on earth makes you think such a source is remotely WP:RS? DeCausa (talk) 08:52, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

These are mentions of the author in the started, which does not relate to resettlement in any way, please do not take the data out of context, the analysis itself is neutral, such mentions are only at the beginning and at the end Dushnilkin (talk) 17:29, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, many Circassian refugees emigrated to the Ottoman Empire, and perhaps it did not help them enough. But it does not mean that the Ottoman Empire should be blamed for the genocide. Quite the opposite. My very best wishes (talk) 21:48, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the fact is that the Turks themselves provoked the Circassians to immigrate, while not providing a sufficient level of security for refugees. The Russians wanted to move Circassians in the Kuban. Dushnilkin (talk) 17:27, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]