Talk:ǁKaras Region

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus. BOLD move reverted. --BDD (talk) 19:21, 25 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

ǃKaras Region → ǁKaras Region – Moved the other way round yesterday, based on a primary source from Government, and dismissing the secondary source in the article. All major newspapers use ǁKaras Region, examples on the talk page. As unlikely as it sounds, ǃKaras Region was a spelling error by a non-Khoekhoe language speaker. The consonant combination ǃK cannot even exist in written Khoekhoe; to produce a K-like sound after an alveolar click, one would write ǃG, not ǃK. Relisted. BDD (talk) 19:14, 11 March 2014 (UTC) Pgallert (talk) 13:31, 17 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment WP:TSC avoid special characters. "ǁ" is a special character. It looks like IIKaras Region or llKaras Region or 11Karas Region or variation on that theme. -- 70.50.151.11 (talk) 06:06, 19 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • variations IlKaras Region,I1Karas Region,1IKaras Region,1lKaras Region,lIKaras Region,l1Karas Region,ⅡKaras Region
    • WP:TSC does not say that special characters are to be avoided (and ǃKaras Region contains a special character as well). It says, for this particular case, In such cases, provide redirects from versions of the title that use only standard keyboard characters. The redirect Karas Region has been provided. --Pgallert (talk) 14:10, 19 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • That special character violates TSC, it should be !Karas Region -- 70.50.151.11 (talk)
        • Specifically which phrase in TSC do you see violated? --Pgallert (talk) 09:40, 25 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
          • There is no violation of WP:TSC. bobrayner (talk) 00:57, 2 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose: Spelling ǃKaras is used in the Government Gazette of the Republic of Namibia where decision about name change has been published. Therefore ǃKaras is only official English spelling of the name of this region. Potential error in the spelling of this name is irrelevant. The name of region has been official changed into ǃKaras and only another one official publication in the Government Gazette can change it. Aotearoa (talk) 11:22, 19 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's not in accordance with the Wikipedia policy Wikipedia:Article titles: Wikipedia prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in reliable English-language sources) is what it says. As already stated in the thread above, all major newspapers (New Era, Republikein, The Namibian, Allgemeine Zeitung) use ǁKaras Region. Besides, the Regional Government office itself carries the sign "ǁKaras Regional Council"... unfortunately that's a few hundred km away, such that I cannot provide a picture. --Pgallert (talk) 14:10, 19 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I should point out that the spelling used in that document is different from the current title, which surely undermines any argument against moving. That document says !Karas Region but the article is currently at ǃKaras Region. Best explanation is a dubious transcription in that document. bobrayner (talk) 00:56, 2 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. WP:UE, which is also part of the article titles policy, says that "names not originally in a Latin alphabet, such as Greek, Chinese, or Russian names, must be transliterated." "Ⅱ" is a letter, not a "special character" under WP:TSC, right? I'm having a hard time seeing "Ⅱ" as a letter of a Latin alphabet recognizable to a large portion of the reader base in English, its use in local/regional newspapers aside. As one of these underinformed readers, however, I do recognize the phonetic value of "!" Dekimasuよ! 20:34, 23 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I see that, even through copy and paste, my computer was unable to handle the symbol used in the request and substituted a different character. Dekimasuよ! 20:36, 23 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • I don't think a transliteration of the Khoekhoegowab clicks has ever been attempted. You find the correct character underneath the edit box, select "IPA" in the drop-down menu. Not sure if I correctly understand your I do recognize the phonetic value of "!" - are you saying you can speak/understand the alveolar click ǃ, but not the lateral click ǁ? The alveolar click ǃ is not the same symbol as the exclamation mark !, even if it renders alike in many browsers. --Pgallert (talk) 05:55, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment: We're discussing to move the article from one special character to another special character at the beginning of [?]Karas Region. I therefore don't quite understand the resistance based on WP:TSC and WP:UE. If the feeling is to rather keep the article under "Karas Region" with no special character at all, it might be better to oppose this RM, and start another one once this discussion closes. --Pgallert (talk) 05:55, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment it should be using a standard exclaimation mark per TSC "!", so !Karas Region would not be using characters not normally found on English keyboards. -- 70.50.151.11 (talk) 06:28, 25 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • But the character is a click, not an exclamation mark. ǃ is the correct IPA symbol, and no, nowhere in TSC is there any regulation that you could base your recommendation on. --Pgallert (talk) 09:38, 25 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• Support ǁKaras Region, as a more accurate spelling, but we can leave a redirect in place to cope with any stray uses of the ǃ version. WP:TSC does not tell us to replace a rare character with a different, more common character that looks similar; that's silly - would you replace Ezh (Ʒ) with the number three? Or replace a cyrillic В with a latin B even though they are completely different consonants? However, WP:TSC does suggest a redirect (after all, it's plausible that editors might type ! instead of ǃ, even if strictly incorrect). So, I'd be happy with redirects from both ǃKaras Region and !Karas Region. bobrayner (talk) 22:09, 1 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.